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Forget about the Combi-LSg, what about the AP Rifle?!?!

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Solar, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    AP Rifles. They seem to cost a lot. I'm not really sure why? Although I think AP is actually pretty good on a Rifle Platform (which is why I like MULTI Rifles too) it feels to me like this is a bizarrely expensive option.

    I was looking at the Asawira and thinking "6pts over a BSg?" and it surprised me shall we say. I know costs for frenzied troops get weird but still. Anyway someone persuade me why this is the case or die trying plz.

    Disclaimer: I am mildly bemused rather than actually aggravated by the cost of AP Rifles and if this thread could maintain a jocular, pleasant tone that'd be great for everyone really.
     
    sackofowls likes this.
  2. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    They cost 2pt over a rifle...
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Rifle+LSG specifically has a lowered cost on the LSG that the Asawira must not get because the AP Rifle is not a Rifle, meaning Asawira pays the same price for the LSG attachment as the Bao does and as the Bolts did.

    If you look at Moblots (where the LSG seems to be the same as what Bolt and Rifle+LSG armed troops pay) or Minutemen, you'll find the price more in line with what to expect (+2 points over a normal Rifle.)
     
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Do they? If I'm honest they seem to be very variable. If they do I'd expect an AP Rifle+LSg to be 3pts over a Boarding Shotgun but they very much aren't on the Jannissary or Asawira.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Looking again, the BSG appears to be too cheap, or all the other profiles are too expensive. As Mahtamori says, the Asawira isn't getting the usual Rifle+LSG discount but that's only 1pt in any case - which is consistent with AP Rifle+LSG to Spitfire being a 3pt upgrade compared to being 6pt over a Rifle+LSG.

    So yes there's something off with the Asawira points costs, but it's definitely not the AP Rifle that's the issue.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, CB really over-values ARM (and therefore things that reduce/ignore ARM).
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's more like symmetry reasons for shooting weapons it's basically this
    Exclusively normal ammo = +0
    Better ammo (AP, Shock, Breaker...) = +2
    Good ammo (MULTI, DA, T2...) = +4
     
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  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    But not AP.
     
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    They don't? I'm not saying you're wrong about the AP-rifles but what else is the reason for the massive point increase of the Tikbalang AP HMG?


    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]1
    TIKBALANG OF MONTESA (Religious Troop) AP HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 92)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    2 SWC | 92 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Is it due to different factors of the platform increasing the cost or something else? I was under the same impression as @Section9 but I'm no expert in the point formula anyways.
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    HMG to AP HMG is normally 3pt.
    AP CCW to DA CCW is normally 1pt.

    As the MO Tikbalang is 7pt more expensive that leaves 3pt that's unaccounted for. That could be an extra bump for AP HMG on a TAG, but it's presumably for Religious, although I don't personally think that should be worth points.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    AP weapons got a pretty steep discount in N3 over 2nd edition (including MULTI). I think they're by and large at a pretty reasonable cost currently, although specific units or weapons are always up for debate.
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Can you explain me how actually remote presence TAG benefit in any way from Religious ?o0

    Not to mention that Tikbalang also loses mines in the trade.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They ignore Retreat! and does not receive any of Religious' drawbacks (except for being unable to Retreat! off the table) because they can use Courage in order to choose to fail Guts.
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I suggest you yo once again check Tikbalang profile. He gains nothing due to having religious on profile (mostly due to Courage but not only).

    (hint you cannot have a Tikbalang and be in Retreat)
     
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  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    You can in 400pts!
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Also in 1000 pts games too!
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how that's actually relevant. We don't know if the Tikbalang actually pays for that advantage, but that's the difference between being Religious and not when being also Courageous.

    If you want to bark up a tree I'll join you if you start barking up the one that has the Tikbalang paying extra for the AP HMG because it's a TAG, because I find that one to be the strongest limiting factor for making HI and TAGs cost effective as opposed to the occasional distraction.
     
  18. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    I think the AP-Rifle is the issue here. Looking at Janissaries, the HMG is 9 points more expensive than the BSG which checks out. But the AP-Rifle + LSG is 5 points more than BSG, which means its 4 more than Rifle + LSG.
    Looking at the Asawiras, there is that same gap of 5 points, which means that the Spitfire is actually a point to expensive since it should be 7 points over a BSG.
     
  19. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    if i remember well, molotok are now 4 points more expensive by reducing DAM from 14 to 13 and gaining AP
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Compared to a Spitfire?
    No it's not. It's 1 points more expensive than a Spitfire (except Marauders which seems +0 points compared to Spitfire)