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Fix the Bøyg

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think "basic" is a better term for what you're describing instead of low tech, that's mildly confusing when Ariadna are in the mix with their actual low tech stuff.

    Essentially it's less a complaint of power more a complaint of you feel the unit is boring, which is fair.

    As for the complaint about superfluous CC gear/skills though, I'm not sure anybody who plays Yu Jing can really sympathise given how much they wind up with junk CC stuff that never sees use on units.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    taskmaster and kriza are almost the same armor, if one is high tech, the other too, but both are more near the low-tech than the high one. The szalamander, one of the most advanced nomad tech (and the most advanced tag they have), is also a manned tag, and kriza don't have "TAG level weaponry": an HMG isn't, and if you want to count full auto in... the boyg also is in). NWI is not only in lhosts, there are some HI with it and only 1W...and not all lhost have it (basic myrmidons are lhosts too).

    Really, the boyg might only missing in options. All end on the same: wanting a high burst long range weapon... but also wanting top atributes all the time because he is not better than other units in the army... if that was to happen, the other units would be the ones talked about here.
     
  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Not talking TAGs, Szally and Blue Wolf vs REM:PRES TAGs is a different discussion.

    As mentioned my summary is a binary split, mostly by applying "either don't have features covered by S2 troops or are literally Lo-Tech (as in have the Skill)".
    1W + NWI occurs galore on S2 (non Lhosts). Hence specifically talking >2W (non Lhosts).
    We can make it a ranking or add more brackets, but for what I was going for that doesn't matter.

    The Boyg has only Full Auto L1(now +1B) which wasn't enough to qualify as high tech next to a KB, Gamma and Sogarat.
    Note that a Ratnik has +1B (although through twin weapons) and Dogged, yet still fails to qualify as well (even before Lo-Tech).
    Note that a S5 Aquila would technically qualify as a high end S5 HI - MSV3s are only found on LHosts and S5 otherwise, BS15 and MSV3 is exceeds their performance - yet we have him as S2. Then there is the Hac Tao and Swiss Guard, for comparison what Human Sphere Tech can cram into S2. In Haqq, the Boyg would probably represent their highest HI tech next to the Asawira. In PanO it's currently bottom level. Hence the question why they would find merit in having it.

    Feel free to make a different list with the criteria you find most important, but mine works for me.
     
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  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And at the end of the day, people are going to use the Bøyg or not depending on whether they see subjective value in what he provides. He fits what some people like to do, and not what others do. That's fine.
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, I didn't bring the tags in the fray, just explained

    So... things that are in S2 but not in S5... arm 5 in s2 is something strange. But NWI in S5 is not so common (6 of 16), maybe as common as in S1. The only thing that all S5 have in common is the higher arm than the basic HI. And boyg is in there too.

    If people whant to see kriza's armour as high tech, is ok for me, but taskmaster should be in too...and also the haqqyslam ones seems to me too. But as far as I know, full auto is not something exactly from the armour, is just that is needed a big platform to wield all needed, be it lv2, or lv1, and the boyg also fits in that group.

    PD: high/low tech should not be defined by how it performs in the game, but only by its fluff, and I see lot of people thinking that, because something works well ruleswise, is high-tech, which seems wrong to me
     
  6. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    How much weakness do you justify for one strength?
     
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  7. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    The Boyg is practically a Yan Huo. If Yu Jing had a thread like this about Yan Huo in the YJ forums the community would be whining about how Yu Jing players are always crying and how they don't deserve shit.

    I wonder what's different here?
     
  8. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    If the Boyg's tech is supposed to represent better mobility/reaction then theres a list of S5 with movement and reaction abilities. Multiterrain isnt unique. Taskmaster has kinematica and the Al Fasid has SS1. Gamma is 6-2 as of code 1. Kielsan is an odd ball being Tohaa tech and zipping across the field with the right metachem roll. Most s5 are already dodging on 14s so a 16 isnt that much of an improvement given it sacrificed any number of other aspects to do that. +1 burst makes it functionally a better naked feuerbach or spitfire but not compared to improving either of those weapons by themselves with +1 burst as other frames do.
     
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Nothing. It's entitled whining over a unit that's good, not great, has a role to fill (even if it's one that people don't want to see). Actually, the difference is that typically PanO is in shades of blue with a sprinkling of green, while YJ is shades and hues of orange and yellow.
     
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  10. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I think the Boyg is just there so PanO has a S5 HI, no more no less. Is it boring? Maybe, but most of the S5 are because they are mostly doorkickin brutes or just glorified turrets.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I know it's probably not really what you consider a unique function, it is technically your only non character HI that has Multi Terrain though.

    Who knows maybe Dazers will propagate further and it'll be more appealing.

    I do also believe that man sized models being allowed to carry Mk12s has also been a rarity. I think the only S2 HI Human that gets to carry one is Tai Sheng and she's a character with a unique set of Zuyong armour.

    Again, I do understand thematically it isn't what you wanted in particular out of a S5 HI, but low SWC bruisers do open doors in list building. You can do things like effectively build a 7.5 SWC list like this with him:


    Svalarheima’s Winter Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
    INFIRMARER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    QUINN Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    BØYG Mk12 / Heavy Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 55)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Again, not what you wanted in particular but it really is a unique thing the Boyg brings to the table for the faction.
     
    #231 Triumph, Apr 30, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  12. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    Given the few restraints placed on Yu Jing and the number of people that came in to say the Yuan Huo isnt very good, I suspect that A) Yu Jing has already gone through this discussion with the Yuan Huo and B) Yu Jing has access to pretty much everything PanO has in terms of tech, shoots about as well as them if not better in some cases, has good design for its characters, isnt restricted against unit types, has command abilities as part of its regular units, has a strong selection of aggressive Lts, has access to battlefield control in smoke, is regularly given physical abilities to compliment its tech and has access to cheap orders, yeah I could see why Yu Jing has so much to complain about for their faction design.
     
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  13. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    The question is that Pano really don't have any firepower advantage. Yes, Pano have the numbers or amount of "profiles with BS15", and too BS14, but the cost of this "extra BS" is a little to high for what they bring to the table. Burst and others things have a heavy impact in game than +1 to BS. And the +1BS only really applies to the elites. Not only pano has a lot of BS12 they are several factions with more BS12 profiles than "Pano".

    If we do the maths most of factions in average don't go more than +/-1 BS.

    (Edit... I wrote CD, spanish for BS, sorry)
     
    #233 Urobros, Apr 30, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a more nebulous aspect to firepower in terms of sectorials also, and that's fireteam comps. Compare the value of the fireteams and wildcards that Pan-O gets to White Banner and Invincibles. Varuna and Winter Force get more expansive fireteam options and their wildcards don't get hard limited like the Yu Jing wild cards do. It's not really a hard stat, but Pan-O do get more freedom in building their units to behave and shoot how they want, try building a mixed Fusilier link versus building a mixed Zhanshi link, or a mixed Orc link versus building a mixed Shang Ji link, Pan-O has a far greater depth of options and unit type for fireteam composition.

    (Don't bring up Dahshat that sectorial was a fucking mistake)
     
    #234 Triumph, Apr 30, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  15. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with "there's more nebolous aspect to firepower", most if we talk about fireteams. I think we should talk first of what everyone understand as "firepower", because it isn't only BS. We can find too many variables here. The simpliest is, of course, the BS skill but it will an incomplete data in a Game with so many habilities and interactions.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    "Technically your only non character HI that has Multi Terrain in PanO" is too speficic for me. With that kind of limitations and ignoring cross Faction, what's the point?
    Multiterrain is not a unique feature on S2 HI outside of PanO. Even with the restrictions you list it needs the Catch 22 of being S5 to be "unique" in a way it wouldn't if it wasn't S5.

    Dunno I very much agree on the N3 Yan Huo being extremely shit right now. It was better in comparison when N3 started, but never great. Doesn't help that IA is one of the most limited Sectorials released in the last 4 books and despite being his home Sectorial, basically has no designspace for him to breathe in.

    However, with 4-4, easier cover, Crits both making its ARM and AP weaponry matter more while being a good chunk cheaper I do like the C1 Yan Huo.
    The C1 Boyg didn't turn out so great (but is pretty useable in C1).

    Hard disagree. There's no KoJ equivalent suit, Drop Bears, BS15, REM:PRES TAGs, G:Sync, ODD, MSV3 or Wildparrot. YJ definitely has their own stuff (better Tinbots for instance), but there's still a gap left. YJ mostly gets Skill and toolbox access over PanO troops, rather than the same + Smoke. This isn't because YJ "can't even MSV3 ", but because they don't want to spend their ressources on that kind of niche tech ultra high end options and go for a more sustainable, but better baseline.
     
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  17. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Also, almost made me snort my coffee when I read that "Yu Jing has no restraints" line.
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well I mean it technically is the point from a thematic standpoint. Different factions have different aspects they've focused on. We don't rate Yu Jing TAGs based against Pan-O tech, so we probably shouldn't be rating Pan-O HI vs Yu Jing tech. Nor does anybody expect to rate their hacking options vs Nomads. My most elite hackers are nowhere near as advanced as an Interventor, but everyone would just look at me and go "well yeah no shit they're not supposed to be."

    And so on and so forth.
     
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  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Just so I understand this correctly - Multiterrain is the "thematic feature" of your choice?

    You're throwing "we don't rate YJ TAGs against PanO TAGs" in the ring against "we shouldn't be bewildered about PanO's distinct S5 HI feature (butonlyinpanoandonlyonnoncharactersfivehi) being Multiterrain"?

    Apparently our experiences might vary a bit.
    In my memory, "the Guija is shit, look at PanO TAGs and how great they are" is the main premise of every thread ever about the Guija and I agree. Hsien vs Aquila or Hac Tao vs Swiss Guard looks like another thing that seems to come up quite frequently, but most people usually agree all 4 have their merits withing their respective Faction.
    Never quite looked at it that way before, probably should start judging the Kriza by his unprecedented access of S5 HI with Multiterrain in Nomads as well.
     
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  20. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    How about an argument rather than snark
     
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