I would argue that the baseline Yu Jing HI should be compared with other nations baseline HI line troops that PanOcenia (or anybody else) has none, to understand how mass produced the basic Yu Jing HI servoarmours really are.
Depends on how you want to compare it. PanO being economically ahead could just produce the exact same amount of Orc suits at 40% increased price and not care too much. (All numbers involved made up to showcase the point) Russian vs German vs American military approach for WW2. Super cheap but high numbers vs quality focus (and in PanO's case without the over engineering issues) vs middle ground. Then there are Knights. All of them running around in a standardized suit for their Order + the Magister chassis available generally and KOJ/FK suits for commanding officers. Magisters look like similar mass produced as Zuyong (although the maniac fitting inside one is probably harder to come by than training a dude to use a Zuyong suit).
I understand what you say, but Orcs are veteran troops, meaning PanO does not distribute the Armour just to anybody, while for Yu Jing Zuyong are straight from base-camp trainees, Military Orders are an interesting question they are after all PMO I assume they are not as populous as a normal (proper?) military formation and are backed up by a really generous financial entity in the form of the Church so advance servo armour is more available.
Invincibles are the largest power-armoured force fielded by humans (Morats probably have them beat) by fluff, by a huge margin. Next would probably be the Heavy Tactical Group using the ORC armour. The difference is fairly noticeable when you see that both Zuyong and Shang Ji are Line Troops, the only power-armoured troops with that designation. PanO couldn't even field HI as Spec. Trained Troops until the Boyg arrived, with all choices being at least Veteran Troops. Magisters are actually Elite, presumably reflecting the limited numbers of Order Sergeants who have shown enough promise to risk promotion. Apparently MO gear is custom-manufactured by Church-owned workshops, so it's by no means "production-line" gear.
Also, please remember that originally ORC counterparts, original Invincibles, were much more similar. It was later that Invincibles got upgraded Shang Ji version, and some time later were completely reworked into Zu Yongs. This, and unique approach when it comes to MO, makes comparing units 1 to 1 much more complex. But this has little to no bearing on the discussion at hand, because the argument isn't that Boyg should be as good or better as its YJ counterparts, but that its rules should justify its increased size. Current N3 and C1 iterations fail to do so.
Not arguing about the meatbag in the armor side of things. This is about how the Boyg suit could even pretend to make sense in the PanO military machinery. Also I think you're overestimating how high up the chain Veteran Troops is. I've always seen those as Sergeant Ranks, pretty damn common relative to the entire force structure actually, might even be the most frequent troop demographic or relatively close to Linetroops given Cubes are a thing. Spec Trained Troops would be rarer than that and probably have a good bit of overlap with HQ troops like Swiss and Aquila. More of a ingame problem trying to represent very different forces with the same ingame classifications rather than accurate representation.
This reasoning by fluff is nice and all, but it really doesn't work when you have AVA5 line trooper Shang Jis in White Banner (not a HI-centric sectorial), and the same AVA5 of veteran Orcs in Svalarheima WinterFor (also not a HI-centric sectorial). And that's also counting the fact that they have the same(ish) costs.
Saw it in C1 Army on Zhanying. Which I guess doesn't mean much, it might not actually be in the rules, despite being in the app. Just checked and it's still in my version.
This remains my key issue. We already had S2 suits with Hyperdynamics. We already had S2 suits with better attributes. We already had S2 suits with the same, or bigger guns. The Boyg simply doesn't make sense as a S5 HI in PanOceania. Take the same unit and drop it into Haqqislam or the Nomads and it'd fit perfectly, because they don't have the tech base to make the kind of things work at S2 that PanOceania already has. But from the setting and background perspective the Boyg makes no sense. Even as a prototype.
I guess we should prepare for a repeat of the Bolt situation. Either Boyg will get something in N4 that will make this unit have sense compared to our other choices, or it'll stay as it is for years, won't see much play not counting some very niche situations, petitions to CB will be met with confused "Why? It's a cool unit", and after few years there will be some update that will finally make it properly playable.
The Bolt situation where PanO players complained and Bolts got immediately buffed? Yes, I agree that's what's gonna happen here, but just as with Bolts, it won't be enough to appease the players. The Boyg only exist because S5 HI are cool and CB couldn't stand the posterboi faction not having one, all this discussion about its place in the fluff is just nonsense because the only justification for its existence is that. By the way, I do agree with you S5 HIs make no sense in PanO because the fluff states they have the technical savvy to miniaturize all that shit to place it on a S2 frame, but marketing trumps fluff.
Daily reminder that every reasonable person should withhold final judgement till we actually know that the C1 Boyg is the N4 Boyg. Might be very possible, but till then, operating and speculating with the benefit of a doubt seems not too much to ask. I do agree the Boyg very strongly indicates a jarring break with what we'd expect, but this right there, is still premature and kneejerk.
I don't think the Boyg is bad, it's basically a better Yan Huo in a faction that's supposedly not HI specialized. Supposedly.
Hence the calls not to make it better but more different from KoJ. But Teslarod is right, we're complaining too much before seeing the final version.
is no better than Yan Huo, the only playable yan huo is the road bloc 2xML neurocinetics and the boyg is B1 in ARO even with B2 in ARO the Yan Huo comparaison is bad because Yan Huo is a bad profile (well it might become playable if he gets 4-4 in N4) an easy way to fix the boyg would be fireteam option, maybe haris special with Varg (Varg aren't guardian of the special facility were boyg are built ?) and give him climb+/jump+ and reduce CC stat. Done. Playable. breaker Spit would be nice but it would be too OP
The Yan Huo and S5 got a lot better in C1. Good bit cheaper, S5 can gain Partial Cover as easily as S2 or S1, 4-4, TAG weaponry with B4/5 AP ammo is a hell of a lot more relevant with Crits ignoring ARM out of the picture. Pretty sure we won't see major changes to Azrail, Blackjack and other S5 HI. But all of them getting cheaper, faster and an easier way to capitalize their defensive stats is a very nice improvement over N3. That said the Boyg is 0.5 cheaper than a comparable KOJ, which is a start. But really just makes me worry for the KoJ who stayed at 5.0, compared to the Aquila also at 5.0 and the Swiss at 6.0.... As nice as 6-2 and being a menace in CC is, I'm not sure it can compete for a slot in Vanilla like that. But same as the Boyg, it's C1, might be missing something new.
not sure we can draw conclusion from C1 costs as what N4 will be unless this topic is fix the boyg for N4 AND C1 ^^ I was talking about N3/N4
Great start for PanO in N4, we get a center-piece whose only cool part is it's lore part ^^ (really hope that there is some N4 stuff coming for Boyg) Frankly speaking the Boyg should be like Gamma, but CB in their ultimate wisdom decided to release O12 as a "proper" PanO, and limit PanOs design space even more ^^
I have to disagree here. While Gamma is very nice piece of tech with an even nicer model, it's also quite boring (yeah, I know it makes it a honorary PanO unit :P) Boyg's concept is more interesting, even if the execution falls a bit short.
Cards on the table - from where I stand PanO is a much better Faction than O-12. Fair enough it's tough to lose a comparison when you have like 4 times the choices, but still. I like at least 3 PanO TAGs more than the Zeta. Aquila and Swiss are better at what they do than any HI O-12 has relative to their points. Regulars or Fusiliers and Auxilia provide better options than Kappas, with or without Sectorial and Special Links. Zulu Cobras and Echo Bravos, Helots, Can't see an O-12 link holding a candle to Magisters with the existing options. O-12 standouts are mostly their efficient "mid pricerange" options 30-50 including Skirmishing options, Epsilon, HI, Goldstein and the odd one out - Vargars. Pretty sure playstyle factors in there a good bit, but I'm happily forfeiting those for ZCs and better high and low end (and again much more options). The Boyg would currently end up in pricerange I don't consider much in PanO for the same reasons. He's expensive enough to be a centerpiece, but if I wanted something like him for the sake of using as centerpiece, as of now, I'd simply go with O-12 or Nomads to do it better.
