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Fireteams, Wildcard and Counts as.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by dalaule, Oct 5, 2020.

  1. dalaule

    dalaule Active Member

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    Hello!

    Some of you might remember this debacle from N3, and many profiles have retained their designations in regards to how they interact with fireteams. However, the rulebook no longer defines Wildcard, and the add-on only gives a poor description on how to deal with it:

    "When creating a Fireteam that includes Wildcard Troopers, the player must include at least one Trooper from the Units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a Trooper that counts as a member of one of those Units."

    Example:
    Special Fireteam: Asura + 2 Yadu

    Can wildcards join this fireteam in place of one of the Yadu? By reading the rulebook, one gets the impression that only ONE trooper of the units must be included: One Asura, and one Yadu. So the second Yadu can be a Wildcard, then? Or is the Special Fireteam "locked" that in a sense it says "Special Fireteam: Asura + Yadu + Yadu", thus interacting with the ONE trooper rule in that all three must be included?
     
  2. radka

    radka Member

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    This isn't answering your question, but since Asura has haris both Yadus can be replaced by wildcards by just forming an Asura haris.

    I think this clause allows you to replace one of the Yadus in the special fireteam with a wildcard.
     
  3. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    I think the intent on the wording for wildcard troopers is pretty clear - you must have at least one trooper listed for the fireteam present in order to have a wildcard. So in your example, you would have to have at least one Asura OR one Yadu (or both present) in order to have wildcards in that special fireteam. The intent here, I believe, is to prevent from simply having a fireteam of all wildcards.
     
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  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The question is why Fireteam CORE is not defined as a skill, because...

    • Perseus FTO counts as Hollow Man OR Securitate for fireteam
    • Grenzer: wildcard
    • Kriza: can join Hollow Men Fireteam
      • Interventors can join Securitate Fireteam
    • Miranda Ashcroft: wildcard
    • Jelena Kovac: wildcard
    • Tsyklon sputnik: wildcard
    • Vostok FTO: wildcard
    • Stempler FTO: can join Hollow Men Fireteam, AND/OR Haris Perseus FTO+Spector FTO
    • Spector FTO: Wildcard & Haris Perseus FTO+Stempler FTO
    • Wolfgang Amadeus Wolff: Wildcard
    So: RAW:
    1. Perseus FTO as Hollow Man + Kriza + random wildcard (tots legal)
    2. Perseus FTO as Securitate + Interventor + random wildcard (tots legal)
    3. Perseus FTO as Hollow Man + Kriza + Grenzerx2 + X [Hollow men have Fireteam Core option, Perseus FTO counts as... ¿?]
    So #3 is in a limbo, because in the sectorial chart Hollow Men have Core option, and while the Army entry has Fireteam Core as a skill, said skill is not defined (not that it needs to, considering only troops with it show up in the sectorial as having the possibility to make said FT). Also, while a Hollow Man is cheaper than Perseus, the grenzers have MSV1 and Perseus has smoke, making it a strong smoking team in a Sectorial with only 2 units with smoke...

    Yay for the annex!
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the army are not "rules". The 3rd one is valid because it is the same case as num. 1
     
  6. dalaule

    dalaule Active Member

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    In all of these examples you have no model with Fireteam skill, so you can't make a fireteam? Although, Perseus' special FTO special fireteam SHOULD be legal, but also contain no model with Haris rule, so it really makes me wonder wth is going on with these Fireteam skills...
     
  7. obyiscus

    obyiscus Member

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    The FTO version of Perseus has the Harris skill so it works, at least for the Harris.
     
  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    core doesn't need an skill, haris needs one dude with the haris skill, duo needs both dudes with the duo skill, and so. Each type of FT has his own requirements that must be checked on

    why is so strange those FT?

    Perseus counts as HM/sec, so he alone can make any core/haris of HM with wildcards, and it will be a HM/sec (one of them, not both), so if he wants a Kriza in there, the player will choose to be a HM FT.
     
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  9. kghamilton

    kghamilton The_Omnishambles
    Warcor

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    Has it been confirmed that you do not need the Fireteam Core skill to form a core if you are a "counts as" trooper?

    Understand it is a requirement for Haris but unclear for core since it makes some interesting fireteams as described above.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    There is no Fireteam: Core skill.

    Army shows Fireteam: Core on some profiles as a reminder, but there is no skill by that name https://infinitythewiki.com/Special_Skills
     
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  11. kghamilton

    kghamilton The_Omnishambles
    Warcor

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    Ah yes apologies, and I agree it isn't a skill, but it also isn't written or described very clearly either and can cause some contention with fireteams. The Hortlaks being an example of a counts as unit but doesn't have either Core or Haris.

    Cheers
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Haris isn't a requirement for "count as" troopers. A Haris requires one trooper to have the Haris skill and all troopers to be able to join that team. E.g. Hortlaks in Ramah are for all fireteam intents and purposes Janissaries except they don't have the Haris skill so you can't make a Hortlak + Yadad + Tarik Haris because none of them have the Haris skill but since Janissaries can form a Core, those three can form a Core of 3 troopers that will be a Janissary Core and since it's a Janissary Core you can stick up to one Namurr in there as well.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. Right now I'm kind of confused as to whether or not you can make a fireteam with 5 legates.
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    From my read you'd need at least one Rodok or Unidron, as Legates can join a Core but don't count as.

    Legates are also only AVA 3.
     
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  15. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    Continuing on this as far as I understand it in Steel Phalanx the four Wildcards cannot form an all Wildcard Enomotarchos but must include one Myrmidion, Thorakites or Dactyl (or count as) since the Sectorial chart only lists them as having Special Firteams (which are Wildcard)

    More interestingly as far as I can see it means Achilles v1 simply can't be in a Duo. The sectorial chart never says that it is possible to form an Achilles Duo. The only fireteam possible is Achilles v2 and Patroclus (either of which can be swapped for a Wildcard), but despite Achilles v1 having the Fireteam: Duo skill he can't form one with the wildcards, since Achilles v1 and 2 are only able to form Special Fireteam in the chart.

    In theory though it seems that if Achilles v1 had an AVA of 2, those two could still form a Duo RAW.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They were AVA 5 right when N4 dropped. Anyhoo, there's no real definition of what a Rodok or Unidron fireteam meand for this purpose; if the Legates were wildcards there'd be a way to resolve it.
     
  17. Tacocat

    Tacocat Member

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    Did you got an answer to your question?

    can you substitute a Yadu in a Haris of
    Asura + Yadu + Shakti with an Parvati e.g.?


     
  18. Sirk

    Sirk Well-Known Member

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    I never noticed Fireteam: Core is not a skill while all the others are. The fact that there are different rules to form different types of fireteams looks like a huge and really note needed overcomplication to me. I really hope it has been an oversight and not an intended rule.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's intentional and made more sense last edition when the trooper with the (Duo/Haris) skill was both typically on a specific profile and decided what "type" of fireteam it was. Now it'd make more sense if Core was also a skill to make checking fireteam legality slightly easier, I agree.
     
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  20. Tacocat

    Tacocat Member

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    And again the original question

    can you substitute a Yadu in a Haris of
    Asura + Yadu + Shakti with - for example - an Parvati?
     
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