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Female Knights!

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by ThananRollice, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    if I were being obtuse, there are other ways, but Bodyline (and poorly done at that) tactics seem to be the only thing you come equipped to do, so...
     
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  2. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    M8 you are being obtuse.

    Her ennoblement does not denote knighthood. Regardless of whether she was joined to a chivalric order or not.

    While a knighthood was the lowest rung of nobiliary titles, other titles did not necesitate a knighthood for their achievement.

    History is rife with dukes, earls and counts who were never knights before or after their ascension to nobility.

    Hell even the famous black prince , was only knighted at 16 after participation in military campaign regardless of already holding the title of prince of wales for 3 years.

    Also fealty to ones lord and king is a requirement of all nobiliary titles, not specific of knighthood.

    Titles as a reward for military service are also not limited to knighthood , in fact great feats of service such as those presented for by Joan would have commanded far greater titles than knighthood.

    Joan was not a knight. She was never knighted and the conditions of her ennobelment do not in any way make her one.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I already played the ball. Being a knight is distinct from other kinds of nobility; it's not about chivalric orders (although that would actually be important in this case, because the knights in Infinity are all members of such orders), but about a particular distinction. A distinction which Joan never received; her entire family was ennobled but as far as I know none of them were made knights, and Joan definitely wasn't. We agree they were ennobled; you have utterly failed to show that she was a knight. It takes more than just being a noble who serves in war to be a knight.

    We started by playing the ball. But then you did the conversational equivalent of handballing and attempting to score. I don't know how much you think what Maradona did for Argentina was acceptable back in the day, but it's more or less what you're trying to do. And failing, because it's obvious to me and others that you don't have a leg to stand on. You're either an imbecile or trolling, and either way not worthy of respect.
     
  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But being a knight is simply the first rank of the nobility. Your argument is the equivalent of saying someone directly commissioned to a lieutenant without first serving as a subaltern isn't an officer. They are, and they have all the rights and privileges of any office below them. And the chivalric orders are a late stage appendage to the office of knight, which at its core simply meant swearing fealty and service to a lord, which she did, fulfilling that requirement. And your ready response to ad hominem and personal attacks is simply an attempt to be Curtly Ambrose, when you're not even Paul Parker.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @A Mão Esquerda No. It was perfectly possible to be a noble of some sort without being a knight; see the example given above by @Skoll . You are wrong, stop talking and go educate yourself.

    My argument is not like the analogy you were describing; even setting aside the fact that it was possible to be a noble of any sort without being a knight, if it were merely a matter of hierarchy, it's like saying someone who got promoted straight to Colonel is not and never was a Lieutenant. Being a knight is not merely about swearing fealty and service to a lord.

    Knights were soldiers. By Joan of Arc's own admission, she did not fight, preferring to hold the banner. Going back to the 6th century in France, there was the concept of "dubbing" which was a particular ceremony to indicate that someone had entered knighthood. Joan never participated in one of these.
     
  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    guys there really is no need to be a fight over it and frankly what has been said could have been said plainer and without an attack tone.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I said it pretty much as plain as I could. If someone's utterly wrong and won't admit it, I'll tell them.
     
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    There are always at least two ways to tell somebody something, sometimes more.
     
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  9. Shinobisaru

    Shinobisaru Active Member

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    Her youngest brother, Pierre d'Arc, was indeed knighted - I did not find how, but there is a high possibility that it was indeed because of the right to the badges of knighthood (and I emphasize that: "right to") given to Jeanne d'Arc and her family members.

    And for that, here is the passage stating the nobility rights and knighthood rights given to her by Charles:

    https://www.jeanne-darc.info/biography/coat-of-arms/

    Now the question is (and I sadly can not answer that since I have not the time or the desire to find the french/latin version, go to my medieval faculty and ask my professors who are specialized in the medieval period - not like a modern history historian like me): Does this passage, which indeed gives her the right to knighthood, mean only the "right to knighthood" - as in, she would have to go through the necessary steps to become a knight but at least has the right to do so - or explicitly "the right to the badges of knighthood" - as in, basically, that they could get knighted whenever they wanted to and already had the right and requirements to be a knight (which Pierre d'Arc might have indeed used, considering he DID got knighted) ?

    So, while yes, A Mão Esquerda, is completely and utterly wrong in his understanding of knights, nobility and military ranks in the medieval time period, even with both interpetations you are not really right either.

    In scenario one (right to knighthood), those rights were also given to her - considering the normal situation of women in medieval France where they would have never gotten the knighthood in the "traditional way" (through a military path, training and combat) this is basically her being at the edge of becoming a knight through a special right given to her. And such a special right for women indeed existed in France, where in specific cases women were able to get the title of "knight", as Menestrier points out in the 17th century:

    "It was not always necessary to be the wife of a knight in order to take this title. Sometimes, when some male fiefs were conceded by special privilege to women, they took the rank of chevaleresse, as one sees plainly in Hemricourt where women who were not wives of knights are called chevaleresses."

    In scenario two (right to the badges of knighthood), well, pedantic is the only way to describe your "she was not knighted!" argument. To use an anology: This is basically like a couple which already had their wedding ceremony, already use their new family name, filled out all the paperwork and were only missing the last signature by the offical representative (signature = knighted in the context of Joan) only for them to get run over on the way to the office. And you are sitting at the side line with the smug comment: "well, technically, they were not married !"

    Of course this might also mean something completely different, depending on the terminology used in the original french/latin version and their meaning in that specific time period.
     
    #169 Shinobisaru, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    The problem with your analogy is that legally speaking unless somebody pushed for a posthumous marriage they wouldnt be married and dividing their assets would be a legal cluster fuck.


    Furthermore we do know of Pierre s knight hood but it is never implicitly stated when he received it.

    He did have years of service in the army at that point. Furthermore Joan and Pierre's older brother Jean, also fought alongside her in her campaigns (at least until Orleans ) but i can find no record of him being knighted.

    Part of the problem is obviously that while the fammily was ennobled , there seems to be no record of the official titled fully granted.


    We only see that they may obtain the badge of knighthood from those who may grant it.


    Which means they have the posibility of obtaining it if desired and found some who may grant it.

    Which explains why one of Joan's brothers received a knighthood and the other did not.

    What's more the analogy falls completely appart at this point, because it would be like someone else doing the paperwork for a wedding you dont want and then you not signing the papers.

    After all under this interpretation all Joan would need for her knighthood is to find someone willing to knight her (surely no shortage) and ask them to do so.

    But this wasnt done.
     
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  11. Shinobisaru

    Shinobisaru Active Member

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    First of all, thank you for the reply. All valid and good critics and pointers at errors of mine. ^^

    Yes I agree, the analogy was a little too quickly done and does fall apart if we look at it closer (this is what I get for making an anology in a tired state at 5 to 7 a.m).

    My point for scenario 2 still stands in so far, that Hecaton argument with a strong emphasis on "she was not knighted!" "knight are soldiers!", "she didn't fight!" loses it's point to a strong degree SHOULD the right actually go so far that her becoming a knight is just a matter of making it official and not a matter of her first doing everything that is needed to become a knight. That point is further shown by the existence of french female "knights" which most likely didn't go the "military path" and were also not married to knights through whuch they could gain the title. Of course that doesn't mean that there were female knights everywhere, but it does give this passage in the text an important position - ESPECIALLY since it focuses on also mentioning that those rights also apply to her.

    And your last point is especially valid, but also falls in a general source problem that at least I can not answer (like I said, the medieval period is not my main field and additionally it would require further insight into sources which a) I don't have and b) I would have to put a disproportianal amount of work into "just" for an internet discussion ... maybe at some point in my studies. I DO find Joan d'Arc and her usage in politics and culture of remembrance throughout human history quite fascinating after all...).
    And that is, what the reasons would be for her to not use those right that explicitly gave her, as a woman, the right of knighthood (which as mentioned, would at least not be unheard of in France in the 14th/15th century) and are there sources for that? There might be various possible reasons: Social norms (she had the right, but did not use it because it was not well seen for a woman to become a knight); Her personal convictions and believes (she didn't want to take the knighthood); Political and social reasons (regarding maybe discussions about who should knight her and where and when for political and social prestige for the people involved); A matter of war and not doing it during the war (did her brother Pierre took the knighthood immediately or did he fight until a later, more quieter point ?); Or indeed a matter of medieval language and inclined shared understanding under which she has technically the right but would have found a hard time to actually get the knighthood (or finding a knight that would actually do that).

    The lack of such sources also go the other way around: Why, in a society where not becoming a knight as a woman is the norm and as such should not have to be taken into consideration in the formulation of a letter by Charles, would the legal text explicitly include such a passage that takes especially her into account ? (Don't interprete too much into that - a medieval historian might know a valid, legal reason why it was included in this way and I am just not aware of it).

    Nonetheless, the source does show that the right was there and must have been discussed by the involved nobility and Jeanne. Which did not end by excluding her from knighthood, but the contrary, giving her the potential right for knighthood.
     
    #171 Shinobisaru, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  12. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Part of the reason for very specific mention in the clauses , is that her enoblement be transferred down the female line should she have issue.

    Which was normally not the case.

    Also one could argue, that the phrasing on Joans enoblement is specifically rhe allowence of knightly conversion without inherently doing it for a reason.

    Basically a hollow grand gesture.

    Knowing she wont take it. Joan being a knight and a woman at the time would be unprecedented if i am reading your text correctly. As it is from the 17th century that we see female chevaliers is that not correct.

    Also i am not versed in French so i am unsure if chevlier and the female equivalent is the same as knight and dame.

    It is worthy of note also that by the 16th and 17th century , a knighthood had ceased to be a primarily martial title.

    In fact it had grown similar to its contemporary samurai , where it served mostly as a minor landed nobility with no necessity for combat and was the lower tier of the court.


    So i can see why the argument is made that during Joans time a knighthood involved something almost entirely different.
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    This has turned into a genuinely interesting discussion of the distinctions between "knights" and "nobles" in the medieval period.

    Thanks!
     
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  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I will not disagree.
     
  15. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    It is very interesting this dissertation about Female Knights and what could this entails; in OTHER fictional Gameworlds there are few, but important distinctions between a Woman that is entitled to wear armour and bear arms (usually called "Lady-Of-Arms") and a Female Noble that made the whole "Squire Aprrenticeship" and was knighted with the "Three Touches of the Liegelord's Sword" after a Night of Vigil and Fasting (and was called equally "Sir" regardless of Rank). . .

    I'm thinking, for an example, as the various iterations of the "Pendragon R.P.G." that from its first inceptions (I believe First Version is of more than 15-20 Years Ago) tried to port DIRECTLY the Traditions of "Arthurian Myths & Legends" as PROPERLY described by their contemporary College Professors of Literacy (for Fictional Mythology) and History (for Legal Descriptions grounded in Middle-Age "Charter of Right"). . .

    But being the "Cyberpunk Military Orders" of Infinity based on "True History" or in mere, more or less contemporary, Literary Fiction, there is still a VERY Important distinction that has not been thoroughly explored. . .

    The M.O. Troops, even those that have "Knight" in their Title, are NOT created by a Royal Crown as its Kingdom Nobility, with responsibility of Fiefdom Management, advise their Betters in the "Matters Of State" and to raise Troops when called to War under the Standard of their Lieges (so the "Auxilium & Consilium", Latin for "Help & Advice", the FIRST Granted-Right-Imposed-Duty of Middle Age European Knighted Aristocracy). . .

    They are "Crusaders" that are raised by the Holy See Of the Papacy; they are DIRECTLY Knighted not as "Liege Vassals" but as "Frater Militiae Christi" (Latin for the "Brotherhood of Christ's Soldiers") and while is clear that they are NOT directly "Freeing an Oppressed Holy Land" (such as in the first instances of the earlier waves of Crusades) they are clearly "Defending the Holdings of Christianity" (Santiago Knights doing escort duty for Pilgrims on the Circulars, Teutonics facing the "Hordes of Soulless Demons" on Paradiso, Hospitaliers doing "Field Triage" not ONLY on Battlefield but also as "Disaster Relief" and so on). . .

    So essentially ALL the Military Order Troops does not fall under the purview of a specific "Blooded Royal Line" as could be in our R.W. for British Soldiers that are ALSO Titled Nobles (the "Royal Marines" of Great Britain are STILL a very coveted Service for Young scions of English Aristocracy to do some meaningful "Career Work" and their IMPERIAL Line is going hand-to-hand with GRANTED Military Ranks more or less). . .

    They are ALL Warrior Monks and Warrior Nuns, some specifically trained for Frontline Combat Duty, ON DIRECT CALL TO ARMS of the Pope and the Cardinals concistory and some other working in Support Roles (such as in our R.W. Friars, Priests and Nuns work in Schooling Boards and / or Hospital Crews). . .

    And for the "Chastity Votes" and so on, from the Middle Ages there were differently layered manners to have "Doubly Christened Laymen" (and sometimes "Laywomen") that could be BOTH Laypersons AND Knights under the Charter of a Holy Order (first it was a manner to have effective Combat Personnel still linked to their Fief Families; then, sadly, become a sort of "Church Tithe" that allowed Privileges to the rich, jaded partygoers that become "Fratres Gaudentes", Latin for Party-Monks !!) and so there were options to have Married Knights fighting under a Monastic Order Standard. . .

    . . . . .

    All these infos I have pertain to SPECIFIC Order of Knights during the Middle Age of ITALY, as My country ever had a complex relationship between Noble Fiefs and Papal Holdings; but My very distant Ancestors fought as "Cavalieri Di Ventura" (Italian for "Knights-Of-Fortune", essentially "Mercenary Black Knights") under the Renaissance War Leader, Giovanni Delle Bande Nere, and this is still under our old "Coat Of Arms" and in the very Family Name of My Father's line. . .

    I have a "Temple" of the Maltese Knights, a sort of "Hospitalier Charter" sub-house very nearby My Home, and they are STILL very involved into Charity and Disaster Reliefs (they have their OWN Medical Personnel rivaling the International Red Cross as for Training and Equipement); My Father was a renowned Surgeon and Medic, and they asked for Him to join their "Lay Ranks" as they usually courted very wealthy Philantropists or Medical Personnel that could help DIRECTLY in the Field. . .

    Could also ask to the Old Contacts of My Father if their "Higher Ranks" are to be considered still Laypersons or are directly KNIGHTED by the Catholic Church (is a complex issue, I know that Actual Knighly Orders of France and Spain have very different Charters). . .
     
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  16. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    I am awed and jealous of the in-depth knowledge of some of the posters in this thread. And this is exactly what I meant, when I said that I would be OK with female knights if it was handled intelligently. If CB pulled inspiration from the knowledge shared by learned posters here, as a justification for female knights, I would have no problem with it. Deep and nuanced understanding.

    It still might be interesting if a particular order of knights was stated to be mono-gendered for one rational reason or another, but I wouldn't be upset if there wasn't one. The only one I would be hesitant about would be Father-Knights, because the masculine 'father' is right in their name. Maybe we could use a Mother-Knight, but that might step on the Reverand Moiras design space.
     
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  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I would like to say that to me it seems PanO knights are inspired more by the concept of men-at-arms rather than, strictly speaking, knights, although early in medeival history that distinction did not effectively exist in language. Since pop culture often associates the latter (which is more or less social status and role) with the former (which is battlefield role) so closely that people don't have chance to learn formal differences, it's not surprising. After all, Infinity is popularized history references galore.

    In this light it gets a bit harder to draw parallels between infinity and RL knightly orders since their similarities are already often broad strokes and borrowing of symbols and, how do I put it, visual associations. And when that is the case, it gets easier to throw whatever vision in since "hey, we've already made up half of that anyway".

    Funny thing that I learned in the process of digging up origins of infinity unit names: RL Arabic Asawira were very close to early European knights / men-at-arms in terms of what that meant both in socium or on battlefield. What's funny here is that N3 Infinity Asawiras are very close to PanO knights in terms of design, with difference for the most part being that they trade ARM for Regeneration and PanO standard arms for Haqq ones. Seriously, look at those profiles.
     
    #177 Barrogh, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @stevenart74 I want to follow what you're saying but the random capitalization makes it hard.
     
  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think it's fair to say that the Neovatican Church Corporation is not quite the same as the classic Christian Churches.

    Essentially, it is a private enterprise which provides a number of broadly consumed products. Banking, religious services, private security, military contracts, resurrection licensing, lhost sleeving supervision etc.

    Within its PMC/Security division, there is a "Knight" paramilitary officer rank. This rank is given to officers with certain levels of training and experience. It does not infer any legal status or benefit, it's basically like being promoted to Manager anywhere else. It's just that in this Corporation, the titles and requirements are religious in nature.

    Honestly I always thought that it was odd that all Knights are Religious Troops. For a lot of them I imagine it's a career more than anything.
     
  20. Kahlain

    Kahlain Greeble-Faust investigator

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    Perhaps promotion to the rank of Knight has a prerequisite : "...only True Believers need apply."