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Female Knights!

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by ThananRollice, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Interesting conclusion. Would personally take that the other way around. The church is firmly anchored in first place and intends to keep it that way/ build on that.

    There are a few gameplay hints at Sikh/Hindu Minorities. Akalis are recruited exclusively from the Sikh population and show that by sporting Religious on their Profiles.

    A lot of PanO troops have a motto written in Latin which could be interpreted as influence of the church. Some others don't and instead sport one in their native language, which might indicate troops that are either unaffliated with religion as a whole or closer connected to their local religion than the catholic church.
     
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  2. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    Not only "Akals Sikh Commandos" are of Indian Ethnicity. . .

    "Bagh Mari" means "Hunters Of Tigers" and is a respected profession of the Indian Sub-Continent from more than 3.000 Years. . .

    Now I'm also curious if the Hindi of Panoceanian see the "Name Usage" of the Vedic Sectorial of A.L.E.P.H. either as an Homage or as a sort of barely veiled affront towards their Religion. . .

    Nagas are usually "Bad Luck Monsters" for Indostan Myths and Asuras are akin to "Western Succubus Demons" but Devas are instead technically "Divine Messenger Angels" and a Marut is a protector of Holy Temples. . .

    I now Imagine that a Posthuman Force where any of the "Marks" is codenamed somehow "Parvati", "Krishna", "Ramah" or even "Shiva" or "Kalima" for peculiarly destructive Lhost Frames could be seen as affronting by faithful Pan-O Hindis as. . .

    Female Knights seeing a Cybernetic Recreation of Biblical Figures like "Lilith" or well-known "Archangels" like "Michael of Water", "Raphael of Air" or "Gabriel of Fire" (the Fourth of the "Elemental Archangels", Uriel of the Earth, while recognized by Jew Mythology is considered a "Fallen into Heretic Deviltry" by Christian Theology). . .
     
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  3. yojamesbo

    yojamesbo purchaser of car seats

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    Or maybe the Hindus see the AI's manifestations as authentic expressions of those different gods/demons. In other words, perhaps they perceive Aleph herself as something transcending mere technology.

    That's not any more "out there" than the facile mind-body dualism that the Church appears to have endorsed with Cubes and resurrection; an anthropological/theological outlook that has been rejected as heretical more than once in the past.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Aleph simply themed the subsection to Hindu mythology, likewise the Assault Subsection with Greek, she could have (place whatever gender you want to Aleph) gone with serial numbers for the units, but since she is interacting with humans she uses themes for the models.

    Personally, I think that if the Church was over-dominating they would not try, usually dominance leads to complacence and lack of effort, as far as gameplay and game background goes, I do not think most religions have the strong martial tradition Christianity and Sikh have, true there could be some Muslim unit but that would undermine Haqqislam, from the background the PanOceania Military Complex is not promoting religious segregation in its ranks (logical since by its foundation it has 4 religions) a good question is the Akalis, we know Church proposal was resisted and PanOceania High Command still tries to keep down the amount of MO that exist, for example Montesa, Akalis may have been a similar attempt by Sikh since to my minimal knowledge military tradition is part of their religion.
     
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  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    That's not how culture works.

    It's clear that the dominant culture of PanOceania is Christian. But the existence of the Akali shows that the other religions continue to exist and contribute to/influence the Hyperpower.

    But cultural saturation on the level we see from The Reunified Christian Church cannot be manufactured. It is only the result of genuine cultural integration
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do not think it is clear, I think that the fluff is written from the point of the Church, logical since it is about the Church and the MO, with passing reference to other religions and a minor reference to a huge Hindu lobby, the church might be the most prominent, or the most advertised, or the most aggressive, but we have no metric to how big the other religions are, if we base it in our current state, Christian Religion as a whole seems huge to us but numbers give another picture, same can be for PanO.
     
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  7. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    To make that claim you have to objectively ignore the framing of the Infinity rulebook, HSN3 and RPG material we have so far.

    In particular:

    "Although there is a sizable Hindu minority, the legacy of the Ad Astra Pilgrimage and the influence granted by their sizable control of Resurrection licenses have made the Christian Church a preeminent cultural force in PanOceania.

    A key factor in the ascension of the Neovatican is its own embrace of the cultura de diamantes: As the communication and virtualisation technologies of Maya became prevalent, then Pope Clement XXI promulgated the encyclical In Mundum Universum which created a quantronic-assisted communion with Christ which empowered each individual to find their own personal path to God. Geographic and cultural barriers dropped away: Perhaps the communal, art-driven worship of Andean monastics was ideal for you. Or the 13th century simplicity of the Apostolic Brethren. Or the glittering wonders of virtual reality Escher churches. The new vision of the Church welcomed this panoply, and participation
    exploded as religious communities and practices that had been obscure for centuries now found adherents who had been looking for them all
    their lives."
     
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  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That's from the rpg?
     
  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Naah, I wrote it myself.

    But I guess this is the right place and time to kick off a conversation about how much better sexual and gender equality are in Yu Jing?

    Let's get into a discussion about that in a thread in the PanOceania forum in a topic about the PanOceania background hunh @psychoticstorm ?
     
  10. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, straight from the Roleplaying Games Manual, Section about "Life in Pan-Oceania" and the "History" of Infinity. . .

    All good stuff, that I found quite appealing. . .

    Especially the Section where is described the Vatican Cardinal Consistory attacked by a vile, cowardly N.B.C. Terrorist Attack, PROBABLY by the same Shithead "False Islamics" that were later nicely (and publically) executed by the Hashashin Bahram, for opposing the Illuminated Ways of Fahrad Khadivar that created Haqqislam. . .

    A thing that shaped the Pan-Oceanian Christian Church is the Pope and the Cardinals issuing Encyclical Promulgations and "Exhortation Of Hope" from INSULATED Biohazard Chambers, where they (wheezingly and panfully) tried to keep the Christian / Catholic / Biblical Confession united towards a better, brighter Future. . .

    And they succeeded, as before the last of these "Cyber Martyrs" finally found the "Peace In The House Of The Father" they realized the "Ad Astra Pilgrimage" and managed to successfully extrapolated the Vatican from Rome, Old Earth towards Neoterra. . .
     
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  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It was a genuine question, Modifius send me the PDFs really late and I have not checked them yet.
     
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  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad there are female knights.

    You could come up with some good background to justify all-male or mixed gender Knights, but the latter is more inclusive of women and promotes women as characters within the game, which I support, so I vastly prefer it.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think that's a really shitty reason to be down for female knight sculpts.
     
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't particularly bother me, tbh.
     
  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    But let me extend on that a little;

    Having female knights in the game has always been part of the background, as already expressed many times over. But so what? If they hadn't have been in the background then I'd be saying they should be there, so that's not an argument which holds water. This is a fictional, impermanent creation, which can be changed. But I do believe that in the modern world, there is no reason to arbitrarily exclude fictional women from roles in fantastical or science fiction settings. Why? Because I believe that culture is influenced by art, and media. We consume vast quantities of it, and it shapes our minds and our view of the world, it shapes our communities, it creates feelings whether you want it to or not.

    That is not to say that you cannot tell the difference between reality and a game. But rather because the miniatures and the depictions of women in the game are significant and important overall, they display either a sense of exclusion or inclusion of women within the setting mileau, with the minis etc. You might say "but I won't want gender politics to taint my idea of whether there should be female Knights!" And that's fair, but also, it does by definition and is inescapable, like it or not. You might say "but this is only one tiny part of the setting/game/etc!" And it is, but then so is every constituent part of anything, larger things are made of many small things. You might say, "but I don't care about things which make the game more inclusive to women!" And... well at that point I have to say my tolerance for your position is dropping like a stone, but even so, I do and therefore I support it.

    Basically if you think it's a shitty reason for no stated reason then, well, whatever? I will survive your criticism entirely and perfectly intact, I am afraid to say. But I'll do you the credit of actually explaining why I do like these new minis, in the mean time. And if you are unmoved, well, I tried.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar What's important about this particular depiction of women in the setting? Obviously there are plenty of depictions of female characters in the setting, so it's not a matter of the raw number. Is the important thing that no group within the setting be depicted as exclusively male?
     
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  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I really wait for people to start campain for female Sin-Eaters ^^
     
  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's important that as many groups as possible in the setting be mixed gender unless they have a particularly good excuse, and most don't. Knights being all male because "Knights historically have been all male!!!" is not a particularly good excuse, and neither is "the Catholic Church is a male-dominated group so the Neovatican Church must be too!!!" No.

    Before we get into the Observancy; I'm not a massive fan of the Observancy background either, mostly because they are straw-man feminists. But also yes, women only units are acceptable, because inclusiveness of Men is, er, not exactly a problem in the whole sci-fi cyberpunk game mileau or indeed society at large. If you disagree with this well, we aren't going to see eye to eye.
     
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  19. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Observance is not just a matriarchal society, they are a female supremacy movement from the beginning (anti Aleph who poisoned the Orthodox christian church with resurrection, anti Christian Orthodox male priesthood who agreed to merge churches and gave in to Aleph's proposal) and they would not make any sense in the Infinity universe in any other place except Bakunin, they payed their place in Bakunin as founders they pay their place in there with their services and they have the sense to stay in their module they would be outright rejected in any other society except Bakunin and their "we don't care what you do in there as long as you don't endanger the mother-ship" movement.

    I would not mind people campaigning for more male roles in the observance more creative uses except sin eaters would be nice to see and I would not mind to see people asking for a male equivalent of riotgrrls. but all these extremists make sense only in Bakunin. The wider Infinity universe does not seem to acclimate well to extremists.
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Solar The idea that female-only groups, as portrayed in the fluff of Infinity, are acceptable in a way that male-only groups are not is so fundamentally two-faced of a viewpoint that I can't respect it. You talk about the Observance as if it's a straw-man viewpoint, but you're exemplifying similar views.

    Fundamentally I'm ok with female knights if that was the vision of the author, which is what appears to be the case. But if your justification of it is that it's the kind of propaganda you want to see propagated then you're anti-art on a pretty fundamental level.