If we follow the timeline, by the time the Reunification of the Christian Church happens PanOceania has altered in overall demographic composition to the point where it's at least not majority Muslim (as it was at its foundation, due to the numbers in Indonesia). But most of the Christians who have been drawn in are Catholic, and as Catholics are already the largest denomination in Australia and New Zealand (as well as the largest minority in South East Asian nations and India) it's clear that the PanOceanian church would be dominated by Catholic voices. Furthermore it is an undeniable demographic fact that those traditional churches which have modified their core teachings to become more liberal have lost members and declined while those which have maintained a more traditional stance (like the Catholic and Orthodox traditions) have grown. This is why, for example, the Anglican church has slipped in membership to the point where Catholicism has overtaken it even in a former British colony like New Zealand where it was once in ascendancy. Now, it has not yet been fully explored in the setting (but I look forward with eager anticipation to the upcoming release of the PanOceania faction book for the RPG which I hope to see soon as it should be finished being reviewed by Gutier), but if these changes can be expected to continue into the future then it goes a long way to explaining why the PanOceanian Christian Church is so Catholic in character. This may well also extend to a continued male only priesthood. This is a long way of saying, while there is no reason for the lay Knights to be exclusively male, there is good reason to suspect that some parts of the Military Orders might still be.
Question: Does PanO society as a whole endorse canceling cubes? Is that a popular practice? Does the military command encourage that behavior? Is that more or less of a sacrifice than a glass ceiling on your career ambitions? Because the Teutons do that, and the fluff is pretty clear that it's an extreme, abnormal practice. And according to the fluff, it is still the order "seeing the largest surge in membership lately." Your reasoning would be sound if you were talking about a secular paramilitary organization. But we're not, we're talking about religious orders. And by your logic (what behavior is popular? what's good for my career?), the great Christian monastic tradition that gave us the military orders these are based on should never have happened.
The church has no right to have an army, that belongs to PanOceania. So the military orders cannot exist as churches army, else any corporation could have one and church is one, the only way church could create army units since the army did not want to create christian military units,the church in their plan to put their influence inside the army had to fund the creation of a private military companies, they belong tot he church and the church has donated their services to the army. Moving on, PanO society views Cube removal as extreme measures something rather socking, this does not mean the Teutons do not get backups, they probably do, but their moment of death can be hours, days, months after their last back up, the cube removal is a recent event developed only after the CA voodoo tech incidents, not something the order did in general, PanO High Command might wish their troops all removed their cubes to avoid the mass sepsitorised incidents they encountered in the previous confrontations, I doubt they would dare to even propose it in fear of the outcry, maybe even drop of combat effectiveness is not worth it. I do not remember Teutons been the most popular order to join, they probably have a surge in their membership been in the hotspot and any adventure seeker would try to join them and they probably be the order in most need of the new recruits, been the one facing the CA front. I do not understand why you give such gravity to my last line I could have omitted and still have a valid point, what I meant is for a female soldier to not have the opportunity to advance it would mean a life service as an order sergeant, not such appealing proposition if one has a career in mind. I have to add that MO do not seem to have any substantial size and their recruitment seems to be relatively low, their low AVA reflects that in contrast to other proper military units, limiting their recruitment to a single gender simply makes their military strength weaker.
This is an important point to keep in mind, and goes a long way to explaining the tension between the Hexahedron and the Military Orders. Yeah, the impression created of PanOceanian society in the setting and background material which we have from both the wargame and the RPG now is one which generally sees the idea of technology as something which exclusively uplifts and improves lives. To a large extent the information blockade surrounding the Paradiso conflict must be as much about hiding the reality of the Sepsitor threat as it is about keeping the Speculo secret. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure that we can point to availability in the army lists as a general indication of real numbers in that way. In my mind this has more to do with the tense relationship between the Military Orders and the rest of the PanOceanian Military as it does with demographics. Fewer Knights in combined operations because officers don't ask for them and they tend to be deployed together.
Six of one half a dozen of the other? I think it is both, MO do not have a substantial size and are not trusted by proper PanO military, I do not know how the economics go, who pays them after their foundation? we know for example Montesa were created with public donations, I am not sure if they are maintained that way.
Well, it can't be the military maintaining them (or they'd just wither and die) so I'd assume they ARE maintained that way. And, I hear you on the mixed reasoning. But the impression we get from the setting material is that the Military Orders are fairly substantial.
There is the possibility the church adds funds in to maintain them, maybe this is why they were not so hot on the Montesa creation. From the earliest schism the temple was making its own money from their research and design, while the Hospital who were the face of military orders seemed to have financial troubles after they absorbed the temple they probably are self sufficient, this probably is the one massive order I am not sure about the other orders though, I need to recheck the fluff I will do it tomorrow.
The reluctance to support the foundation of the Montesa is one key argument I'd use to support the idea that the Church has ongoing funding responsibilities.
See I have several problems with this thought process. A professional soldier whose gender causes a rank progression dead end may not join, but the soldier whose gender aligns with rank progression gender politics very well might, and then you have a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak. But the major problem I have, is this is the thoughts of the ambitious. However Military Orders is a religious group, based on a historical religious groups that have highly promoted humility, not ambition. The thoughts of individuals that join, may not be focused on what they can achieve, but how they can serve. And that changes motivation dramatically. Right or wrong, I do not see gender segregation as a necessary stumbling block to a full roster of dedicated warriors. To me the more important factor, is what vows do they take? If Chastity is one of the core vows that these orders take, then mixed gendered orders would be highly unlikely. However I think their could be male and female centered versions of each order. In today's world their are male only monestaries that follow the rule of St Benedict, and their are female only convents that follow the rule of St Benedict. Their is no reason there could not be the monks of the Knights Hospitalier, as well as the nuns of the Knights Hospitalier. And they might even cooperate in the field with mixed gender operations. However I think a link team would most likely be members from the same cloister. That being said, all this is a little heavy philosophicaly for a fictional universe used as a backdrop for our little dollies to go pew. pew.
If any knight would be modeled female it would be Magister Knights. Although maybe it would be more fitting to make a blister solo lady Knight and the box all guys, like with Wu Ming. Hospitaller box is still all guys and I expect the same of a new Santiago box. Spoiler: Inb4 the common joke
Where are all these queues of female warriors coming from, 175 years from now? Women, throughout the entire history of mankind, are far, far less likely to fight than men. All things being equal, men are physically much stronger and faster than women. These are in-the-thick-of-it battlefield roles we're talking about. Even if you compensate for physical prowess with buffing them with power armour (though I still think you'd favour your naturally stronger and faster candidates for elite units), men, the world over, like fighting and want to fight more than women do. Add to this the enormously comfortable and wealthy PanOceanian society. I can see that for a people which are close to the edge, in permanent danger from all sides would have a higher percentage of female soldiery - CHA for example. This is out of necessity and not choice. PanO doesn't have that threat and associated need. Now, add to this an elite Catholic Military order, which has overtly been based on historical religious orders belonging to a still existing and conservative Church. Pen-dragon has made the point about vows of chastity and that orders then and now are men or women. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has stayed pretty dead on its message for 2000 years that man and woman are made equal in dignity, but are not the same and have different strengths and consequently different roles. This today is a pretty unpopular teaching in the West, but its showing no signs of going anywhere. The fluff arguments for female knights are weak. My feeling is that this is 70% giving the neckbeards their boob plate, and 30% liberal overtone.
Man, way to overanalyze this. The fluff states that female knights are rare, pretty much like you said. We wanted to get a model or two because it adds to the variety, but very few people argue for full 50/50 split.
The thing is the MO cant function as PMCs in the legal sense either if they are subjugate to military high command. What's more albeit they dont super see eye to eye, regular members of the pano standard forces seem to respect the equivalent ranks of MO forces. The neo vatican would be entirely entitled to its own defense force as well. It is a nation recognized by the O-12s precursor. The fact that it willingly handed over control of the orders to the pano military complex, is both a means of influencing the military and the public. Look how magnanimous the neo vatican is. Providing arms and soldiers to help defend pano the society of the faithful. The military orders simply cannot function as PMCs or even be labeled that in the legal sense, or they would lose so much of the desired integration process. Real militaries deal with mercenaries on basically a strick need to know basis. The order of santiago could noy effectively lead the blockade against the ai, with the limited coordination ability PMC status would grant em. We might as well assume the druze are doing it. The old fluff also seemed to indicate at the bare minimum OS are numerous with the escalation of the conflict in paradiso and the flocks of the faithful that have answered the call.
So after rereading the fluff, except if the rpgbooks name the church as a separate nation, it is just another "corporation" and lobby inside PanO a huge and influential one incorporating many companies inside it, but not a separate nation (so they cannot create an army they are not a sovereign antion), now the church owns the military orders for example the order of the Hospital belongs to the hospitaler bank (owned by the church) I do not see how this make the order of the hospital anything but a private military company owned by something other than the state. And PanO high command acknowledges it, military orders have greater flexibility from normal units because they do not belong to PanO Military Complex and are not funded by state money, still they are well integrated inside the PanO high command, interestingly wile devout, as devout as people that have become Christians in order to get resurrection credits, order sergeants and knights are not priests, these are only the father officers, so they are monks I guess but not sure if all of them are, especially since they can get out when their tour ends, in general what makes MO attractive to be recruited in is the resurrection points and if the higher the rank the better the points, I see the church faced with a lot of bad press by not allowing women to participate in the higher ranks. Now as far as Teutons and the MO recruitment drive the Paradiso front is currently the only front recruiting and the church has thrown in extra bonus points for joining there explaining the influx of recruits and given Teutons are the order of the Paradiso the lions share goes to them, that been said I remembered correctly the Teutons removed their cubes only after the CA invaded, its not something the order does in general. So yes, MO should have about the same m/f ratio with the normal military units PanO has, give or take a bit and enouph of them would probably be knights too, probably 4/1 or something along these lines. As far as why recruit women? any able body does especially if there is not enouph influx of recruits, now PanO seems to have a further issue since they managed to tie military service with big bonus of resurrection points (even bigger if you choose MO) and there are strong legal grounds to allow woman in the army, I am not saying that the admittance tests will not weed out a large chunk of them, but as I said any able body.
Maybe its a lost in translation thing. But being a lobby has nothing to do with being a corporation. For example many religious groups have powerful lobbies. What's more besides having incredibly powerful corporations the fluff does not seem to indicate that member nations ceased to exist all together. Pano has always seemed to represent a caricature of corporate america and the final destination of the EU. Where the members identify to outsiders as pano but to each other as distinct groups. For example there is certain to be a paradiso lobby in pano, but it is by no means a corporation. Furthermore the orders very much dont seem to enjoy the freedom you ascribe them, they seem to be quintessential integration to pano military. They are not a pmc, they certainly dont behave like one or adopt any of the characteristics of one. Druze are the quintessential PMC, after all that's all private military companies are. Rebranding of mercenary outfits. Whereas the MO dont function, mechanically, ideologically or legally as one.
First of all there is no mention PanO is anything than PanO there is no mention of dependent nations within PanO, there are mentions of countries joining PanO, but not that they remained independent inside PanO, if PanO was a conglomeration of nations it would have been stated in the fluff. The church not been an independent nation owns corporations like the hospitaler bank and the hospitalers are owned by the hospitaler bank, there is no debate there the book says owned by the bank that is why their finances are so good, I think I have read the church is considered a company under PanO been a religious organisation, but I cannot find it, so lets ignore it the biggest military order is owned by a bank, this cannot in any way be a military unit under the PanO Military Complex, it is further stated that PanO does not pay for the MO, so their funding does not come from the state, but from the church, in some way we know Hospitalers are owned by a bank and Montesa were founded by public campaign, the others not so, probably owned by some corporation of the church or by public funding? the book also speaks clearly of MO having flexibility in what they do and working under the orders of PanO or the church on some weird quote. I think they function "as one" with the rest of panO forces is because their whole reason of existence is to be part of PanO Military Complex not functioning well in it would be a failure in their prime function even though they do not belong to PanOcenia.
So you are saying their entire purpose of being is to not act like PMCs, and not be PMCs . I dont see if you witness that you are saying the church cant have an army, but they own a bank which owns an army which is fine. Public funding does not make the montesa more like a pmc, if anything it makes them more like the military. The church having a militant arm does not make that arm a pmc, specially not when it doesnt behave like one and its fully integrated into the military. At most the MO behave as a different branch of the pano military. Im happy to agree to disagree but im telling you. The MO are in no shape and form anything resembling a pmc of the real world, and if they dont fit the description at all they might as well be called something else.
@psychoticstorm This discussion raises several issues which maybe fit in better elsewhere? I was surprised that MO's are not survivors of the historical Orders, but modern recreations, inspired by the historical orders. So, how are the modern Orders like Historical Orders, and how are they different? Female enrollment being just one example. Have women always been welcome since the modern MO were (re!)founded? Or was their some event that spurred this as a change? Speculation: Maybe many women demanded to join, or high casaulties -- perhaps at Paradiso -- made it necessary. Or, maybe it was demanded in virtual debate as the details of the Refounded MO were being hammered out? Also, the Resurection Lottery bonus for (modern) MO service makes it pretty clear: the MO's seem well designed as a vehicle of Conversion. This gets directly to the points adressed above: why allow women? Because, there is no point converting only one gender. So it also makes sense to not have a Lifelong vow of Chastity. While actively serving, yes. As stated above, they could possibly have each gender have somewhat seperate facilities... (Or not. PanO citizens seem to have fewer "hang ups" than us 20th century types.) After retirement, possibly in a new, young (clone?) bodies? I can see the church strongly encouraging those new converts to have kids.
