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Feeling Outclassed by Power Creep

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by fenren, Nov 2, 2018.

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Is Yu Jing Currently Under-powered ?

Poll closed Nov 12, 2018.
  1. Yeah, it's rough out there for a dragon...

    21 vote(s)
    23.9%
  2. No way, Yu Jing is full of great troops!

    67 vote(s)
    76.1%
  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    As @Hecaton pointed you've got that ass backwards. TAGs are unforgiving as hell to play nor are they newbie friendly, in fact one of the common things you'll hear from people giving advice to new players is leave the TAG at home until you've got more experience with the game.

    TAGs have more attack vectors they have to guard against due to being a TAG and their size. In Infinity when you fail to defend your model unlike other games where you can pretty safely rely on raw defensive stats to see you through to another turn, models instead just die.

    The Guijia is also just as susceptible to bad rolls because it's 88pts. The last time i fielded it against Ariadna on Deadly dance I conceded on the bottom of turn 1, because my Guijia sitting in SF Mode got shot at by an assault pistol once, ate shit and died from being unscratched (incidentally kids this is a pretty good example of why Mrs. Guijia should not be leaving the DZ on turn 1 even when the mission encourages it). It's like great, that's a 3rd of my army, 3 SWC, the hell do I attack with now? If I was running a cheaper option I would've had the points and SWC to spare to pick up spare attack pieces like a Tiger, or a Rui Shi.

    This is the reality of this game. The most forgiving way to play is to put alot of bodies on the table. The more cost effective bodies you stick on the table the more your dice averages will smooth out and the less you get punished by an order each time your opponent capitalises on bad positioning. If you position 4 20pt models badly, your opponent needs to use at bare minimum 4 orders to punish you for each and every one, and be in position to do so. If you have 1 88pt model you stick out of position your opponent needs all of 1 invisible ML dickhead to blow your 1 88pt model up, or Raoul Specter might drop in from behind and turn it into a brick. It becomes much easier to punish you for your mistake.

    Being an average TAG isn't good enough. The classic "Line TAG" like the Guijia isn't an average model, it's a garbage model thanks to the drawbacks of simply being a TAG. The Raicho, which was essentially a Guijia immune to Isolation and Loss of LT needed a buff for the same reason, being an average TAG means you're actually garbage because on the overall power curve you're way below it.

    You need to set your hackers up so they do something besides hacking enemies. Dropping White Noise to mess with MSV1 which still pops up in even Ariadna, buffing combat bots, being midfield infiltrating button pushers etc.
     
    #61 Triumph, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  2. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    After some analysis... Yep, you're right, Total Control is a very powerful program. And the Su Jian is better suited to tanking on STR thanks to its G:RP. I have never actually faced an AHD with my TAG lists before, people just seem to hate bringing them for some reason possibly beginning with K, but that's another thread.

    On Uprising; Uprising sucked. It made me feel bad about variety in my first faction, and cut enough points from my early collection that I couldn't play at 300pts without use of proxies. I wound up with Nomads after an abortive attempt to buy into MRRF due to putting Infinity models(whatever looks nice) on a milestone birthday list, and started hating the way they played so I came right back over to Yu Jing. For what it's worth, Vanilla Yu Jing is still a stronger and more fun option for me than Bakunin Jurisdictional Command.

    I did buff things extensively. Pi Well was just about the only bright spot in the boring hellhole of Morlock spam and Infiltrators less interesting then the Line Troops. In the rest of your post you do have some very good points about the Guijia's vulnerabilities. They don't match up with my experiences, but I'm perfectly happy to admit that my meta is weird, I am bad and you've probably got a lot more experience. My meta is mostly full of midfield ODD actually; the top players all use Steel Phalanx and several others use Nomads, JSA or PanO with their own ODD units, so the extra armour to close range and flamethrower are a lot more valuable then under what I imagine are normal circumstances. The Hsien HMG gets used a lot too, but his HMG doesn't do too well against massively armoured infantry in cover or up close and the Nanopulser's range is short while its damage is insufficient against the likes of Ajax and Achilles, though still a menace to Infiltrator types.

    One tip about losing TAGs: Don't concede. The dice go both ways, and I've had a lone Moderator Lieutenant save the game in midfield when all my dedicated attackers were down or out of position. You'll definitely have less orders and worse units then an opponent with a balanced force, you are 100% on the money there, but a Zhanshi can tank 8 saves as often as a Guijia can fail 3. That's the dice normalisation over many troopers thing you were talking about, just not quite as reliable due to having 10 instead of 12 or 15.
     
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  3. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    To be honest I've never heard anyone refer to Yu Jing as OP... was this pre N3 days?
     
  4. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    Nope, it was explained by the original poster of that comment that it was meant to be sarcastic.
     
  5. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    Ah, my bad. I am have some thread catch-up to do.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    There's a variety of reasons AHDs are somewhat in need of tuning, however one of the biggest reasons you don't see them much is their preferred prey is relatively rare. If you buffed alot of the TAGs and they got on the field more, along with giving them some options against unhackable armies, you'd see them hit the table more frequently. Personally I run into them on a frequent basis still because I see Vedic, Tunguska, and Haqqislam alot and they don't need much of an excuse to get AHDs into their lists as they have some very cost effective choices.

    One of my most frequent opponents plays Phalanx, let me guarantee you that the Guijia is one of the most useless options you could pick against them. In fact I played him 4 times with the Guijia over 2 weeks because we were demoing Infinity at another store last month. The Guijia can't reliably win firefights against them because ODD and they drop smoke on themselves, I'm not kidding here even in the good range band it's absolute trash tier odds. 24% the Guijia inflicts a wound vs 67% the Myrmidon drops a smoke grenade on itself.

    If you push up close and try to flamethrower them they declare Dodge and Engage AROs, jump on top of your TAG and beat the shit out of it in CC. It's not like you can opt to shoot them at close range with the HMG to try and counter with F2F rolls, the Guijia rolls on -9 BS MOD up close against ODD.

    If you drop your Guijia and pick up a different configuration like this:

    [​IMG] Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    [​IMG] SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

    3 SWC | 89 Points

    You will have so much of an easier time it's not funny. If you need to drill a fatboy like Hector or Achilles in cover the HRMC is better than the Multi HMG on the Guijia, if you need to get close and template the shit out of Myrmidon links the Monks are disposable and better at it, plus they're also even superior to the Myrmidons in CC.

    And you absolutely hard counter the defensive smoke grenades with the Rui Shi, and you can use the Monks to shoot safely through your own smoke. The only model that can try to stop you is the CoC Myrmidon Officer or Machaon, and the Rui Shi has far superior odds of stopping them at 42% vs 35%, plus the Rui Shi packs still packs Shock ammo to hard counter the NWI.


    That game was done. It was Deadly Dance and I'd been screwed by the starting rolls, both zones were in the same quadrant on my opponent's side. If I had order efficient attack options up my sleeve like a Tiger Soldier then I still had an opening to go with, but generally speaking in missions like Deadly Dance if you start that badly on the backfoot with casualties like that you just lose because you can't stick enough points and damage into the zone to catch up and take over in scoring. You're just playing to answer the question of how much you lose by, still valuable to do in a tournament but this was just a pick up game.
     
    #66 Triumph, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I actually didn't mind the split itself, I saw it coming (at least as a possibility) back when Human Sphere came out in N2 (~2009).

    I had damn near the entire JSA collection when the Uprising hit. The only thing I was missing was the two Shikami (and the standard O-Yo pilot). I even have two O-Yoroi, and 8 Aragoto!

    The new models look awesome (well, maybe except for the funny hats, I'm not too fond of those). Looked awesome enough that I pre-ordered the Army Pack and Uprising book together, even.

    But ye gods, goddesses and all the little kami, the fluff. Where is the :puke: emoji on this forum? There isn't one? Ah, fuck it, let's just go straight to :hankey:, then.

    The JSA models have been sitting on my desk to be painted ever since they arrived. I haven't even assembled Celty. I haven't bought anything else for JSA since, and only today bought any other model for Infinity in general (Dragoe, so I can have the TAG for my long-term TAG trade show project). Didn't buy the Tanko, Keisotsu SWC, or new Aragoto (and the size difference between the current Domaru and the Haramaki is tough for me to take). No motivation to work on anything.

    I'm trying really hard to be excited by what's coming in 3rd Offensive. The PanO changes actually did excite me, and I hate PanO. But what was spoiled for Invincible Army did not excite me in the least. Worse, it did not really do anything new. Nothing that filled a roll the JSA models used to. Hell, the Liu Xing is basically a Tiger with NWI instead of Mimetism. Not exactly 'new design space'.

    So I'm unbelievably disappointed and discouraged right now. I'm not sure I have words to describe it.
     
  8. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I have to say I have a very hard time justifying playing YJ right now as it seams like other factions can do whatever it is I am trying to do just a bit better. This however could still just me being bitter about uprising and overcorrecting.
    I mean we still have a really awesome transformer kitty and some great cheap order bomber zombies, Tigers are really good as well... It's not like we don't have stuff... I just can't seam to make it click for me right now.
     
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  9. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    To the Triumph post, I will say that the only thing stopping me taking Yu Jing's fantastic combat remotes is that I don't own anything with the requisite silhouettes. The Rui Shi has a clearly dependable statline and no other faction has something as fun and active as a Lu Duan for a remote. No other faction really measures up with the possible exception of PanO's Bulleteer, and that's dull as dishwater. The reason I prefer flamethrowers over the monk's chain rifle is that it ruins ODD and Camo for other ARO pieces to actually take out the target. I'm considering switching to Shang Ji for midfield ODD clearing duties to replace the Guijia, for many of the reasons outlined above about its unsuitability in many situations, until I can get my hands on a Lu Duan, Su Jian or suitable proxy.
     
  10. Alphz

    Alphz Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry? It has a whole new rule that no other unit currently has? You can be disappointed that it might not ber the uberprofile, but save the hyperbole please.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Phalanx's ODD stuff is 1 wound for the most part as are the vast majority of camo markers. You know what ruins ODD besides fire? Being dead. Just worry about making them dead don't worry so much about applying the burnt status. Remember you need them to fail a dodge to apply burnt, and if they fail a dodge against either template they're statistically likely to cop a wound.

    Phalanx links are expensive. Trying to deal with 5 pt disposable idiots with chain rifles who excel in trading up in cost is something they absolutely hate.

    As for the Shang Ji I mean Jesus dude you're hellbent on switching one lemon for another. They may not even have flame throwers at the end of the month either.
     
    #71 Triumph, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  12. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    Good point about the burnt status, I just have trouble seeing through some weird anomalies with my own luck on ARM saves sometimes. And yes, I am hellbent on taking all the lemons. I am legitimately interested in why most of these profiles upset people and want to find out if there are tricks or circumstances that make them valuable.

    Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be combative here. Your opinions and insights are amazingly helpful, and I will keep writing up any ideas that come to mind in case they are helpful, or to stop me finding out obvious mistakes I overlooked halfway through a tournament, unless somebody asks me to stop. (I did kind of get offended about the Fairyland thing and lose my temper though, sorry)

    About the Liu Xing, have to agree with Alphz. I've tried them out, the resilience and MULTI option lets them play very differently to Tigers even after they've landed. They're fun.
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well the Shang Ji's an easier answer they're just stat bloated Zuyongs that cost more points and SWC for no greater offensive threat.

    Compare the following profiles costs:

    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39)
    [​IMG] SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42)

    They're all 2 wounds, and they're all BS13 with no gun fighting MODs. Shang Ji's just a misfit relic from N2 where it had a unique gimmick being the only 4-4 HI, and now he's just an overly expensive Zuyong paying for moronic stats like CC18.

    With that said, if the Shang Ji had an interesting link team option the current version of them would be playable, at least more effective than the current Guijia, but without links and in a vacuum they're garbage because they can't compete inhouse with the other HI.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Assuming that Explode LX works like the Caskuda did back in the day (it's what Bostria said it did), then in order to use the explosion you need to land within 2" a target, close enough for them to dodge-engage you and pin you in place for an order or two. That's not anywhere near as powerful as a TAG doing the splodin, since the Caskuda had a HFT and MHMG.
     
  15. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    While it's certainly no TAG, a lot of things I'd want to drop it on want to be engaged less then it does. Hackers spring to mind, as do very expensive HI like Hac Tao or Swiss Guards that lack heavy CC investment or anything in a critical position to counter your own play. That ability to pin down or destroy enemies wherever you need it seems like it will be very helpful in a low model-count army like IA or most of my Vanilla lists. Though I wasn't around at the time, I've heard the Caskuda was rather unfair and hurt the game(I think this was from you in one of the analysis threads), so I'm happy that the Liu Xing isn't a super-unit of salt-inducing proportions.
     
  16. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    @Uprising fluff - its actualy very accurate what Japan and China did in XX century during wars. It fits perfectly. Aso I am always amused when someone is shocked with how YJ is decribed. Even before Uprising they were faction with prisoners having bombs and secret police with hard gestapo/KGB vibe. Thats why we love them;) I guess?

    @why play YJ - when I want to play with rambo HI in camo in middle of table, backed up by SJ and tons of orders I go YJ;) Its funny, cant find it in other factions. Recently I play more Vedic, because I waited for them so long, its new and offers a lot of fresh options. No power level reasons.

    @Gujia - its not bad, but there is simply no justification to take her. Oyoroi offerd something unique,Gujia doesnt;)
     
  17. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    That's a reasonable position to take, given your feelings. But, CB's approach of denial, wait, new models doesn't seem like going away anytime soon. With the decisions to temporarily retire 2 other sectorials, at least in terms of releases, I think they're trying to nudge players into the new releases. It isn't frictionless, and it does reveal a more ruthless side to the business model - we can all agree how ugly naked capitalism is, after all, but that's the nature of the beast.

    I guess I gave up wanting to have Yu Jing replacements for those JSA models I lost about the time I bought into JSA, and if I hadn't, I'm sure I'd be more cynical. I think the ninja ship has long-since sailed, and whatever comes won't replace them. A lot of my interest in IA depends on the unreleased profiles - I can see Zencha in my lists, but not necessarily the Liu Xing - especially the command and strategic assets.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find there's not so much a problem with being the evil faction, but people are pissed at Gutier writing Yu Jing as the stupid evil faction. If they were portrayed as competent evil villains and not bumbling cartoon idiots you wouldn't see nearly as much criticism about the Uprising fluff.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much this.

    Yu Jing was incredibly incompetent in how they handled the Uprising. And that's not even getting into what's up with PsychoCrane.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Explode was the gimmick, Combat Jumping TAG was the real strength.

    The Caskuda was a TAG with AD carrying an MHMG with a Spitfire's rangeband between 0 and 16". As others have analysed, having a Caskuda simply walk in on a table edge using downgraded AD was often better and meant you could have your opponent's entire army flanked and it's not like a couple of Chain Rifle would be enough to guard a particularly vulnerable flank. Not to mention you'd not have your Caskuda immediately immobilized, possessed and glued on first order like was not uncommon when deploying explosively.

    The Liu Xing does not have that which made the Caskuda hard to impossible to deal with - even the Guijia wouldn't be on the same level if it got AD4 (like they did in that narrative mission) because even though it'd have identical stats to the Caskuda, the HMG's rangebands were nerfed going into N3 so it'll be less deadly at close to medium range.
     
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