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Father Knights, Assault and Close Combat

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Wolf, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yes, there is no perfect analogy or we wouldn't be talking about different factions ^^

    Damage 14 EXP means 3 rolls of 50% to take a wound. Again, the trick here is NOT to roll, just threaten. Kinda like planting a Naga in front of a TAG, then a Monofilament mine. Those things apply pressure to the enemy... and it means he will make mistakes.
     
  2. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    I used a pupnik to engage a Jotum once.

    It took my enemy 5 orders to get rid of that pupnik. Did it take the TAG down? no. Did it damage the TAG? no. But it wasted half of a turn from it, making it *very* worthwhile.
     
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    How many pupnik you can have at once, and how many smoke tosser you can have ;P
     
  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, I forgot the part of no MOD applied with electric pulse, my bad. I have to admit that I am rarely able to use it.
    The main use of CC I can see in PanO is to chop infiltrators like Guilang, Chasseurs etc. because if you don't have MSV2 (which can often happens), you're going to waste sometimes too much orders for what it worths. And the same against smoke tossers that are not martial artists.

    Since I start to play Knights in my lists, I'm regularly using CC to solve the problems. Even in NCA, I engaged Chasseur one time with my Squalo and it would have been worthing it if this damn guy didn't success all its saves in the five orders I spent on him (the rolls were never under 16).
    A good example I had Sunday: a Farzan with BS was facing at good range one of my Magisters with my link broken. As I'm not used to MO yet, I forgot to play his impetuous order but I would love to play it. Because I would have a good chance to take out this guy who costed me the game.

    I agree that it is useless to run for CC but it is easy to be in a situation where even not having someone like Kirpal suddenly sucks.
     
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  5. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes an enemy like a HI without martial arts ends up getting really close to your own troops. Lets say that your slightly behind the edge of a corner that your opponent has to get around to shoot you. Instead of shooting or dodging, you can engage. The idea here that you are not aiming to win the fight but rather to tie up your opponent and make him waste orders in CC or by moving another unit. Your goal in the passive turn is to get your opponent to waste as many orders as possible and CC between non martial arts HI does exactly that.

    Of course, your opponent can try to avoid getting within 2in but thats sometimes easier said than done, especially if you want to keep cover and maximize order efficiency. Engage is a very important skill to remember when using the military orders. The high PH + Hyper-Dynamics of Magister Knights makes them especally good at using engage. Yes, its very situational but it does come up.

    The more you learn about how CC works and how to make use of CC skills the more CC will be used in your games.

    Note: credit to Vaulsc for making a great video explaining this tactic.
     
    #25 Death, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    No you cannot as you need LoS to enemy to declare Assault or Engage.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Death is talking about when they come round the corner.
     
  8. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. They come around the corner and are therefore in LOF, you can engage them rather than try to shoot and risk a DTW. Is this very situational? Yes. But it does come up so keep it in mind.
     
    #28 Death, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea I'm aware of this (one of the reasons why Nimbus on Father Knights is so bad ^^), but this scenario is taking assumption that your opponent heavily misplayed (I was able to pull similar scenario only once, after that my opponent knew well to stay hell out of my engage range, always).

    Just last game had to just manage properly my BF not to enter 4" teleport field of Shikami and just shoot bastard without problem.
     
  10. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, its more important to remember with CC specialists since it helps make them even more dangerous. If that Shikami was inside a building, it might not have been possible to avoid engage range.
     
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Thats partially true. If a Killer Hacker attacks the father knight in active turn, but if the knight hacks the KHD in the active turn then the situation reverses. Just do some test runs through the infinity dice calculator. The father knight is quite strong as a hacker and he can be very useful vs counter HI links, TAGs, and REM heavy forces.

    Also, I've learned not to underestimate the Knight with spitfire. He doesn't look like much, but having BTS 9 is very nice when facing Jammers, E/M, etc.

    As for the Father-knights CC capability, if your fighting units with BS mods like ODD or even Camo, its often the case that if the enemy has low CC skill, you'll have a higher chance of killing them with an assault order than shooting them, especially with a combi rifle.
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Hm... interesting ninja seems to have much lower chances of wound then I have had anticipated. Quite lower.
    Yes I know that, but my usuall grip is that you usually have to (if you want to use assault) have at least 1 shooty F2F exchange (to get LoS to enemy), and then you have to make assault versus enemy shooting. In the end opponent have 2 shooty ARO, something you probably wanted to avoid in a first place ;/ (if not why did you want to assault?)
    Jammer still have 25% chance to Isolate you if they win F2F, EM is breaker so you "only" have BTS5 against DAM13 (so slightly higher than LI in cover against combi). Not that great chances for ~50 pts model against 5 point one :)
     
  13. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Its better chances than you get with any other Pano HI. Jammer is just OP for a weapon on a 5 point model.

    As for Assault, it quite likely vs a model with ODD/TO camo that you are not going to kill them through shooting without taking up a lot of orders. CC can speed up that kill. Risky but you've got to take some risks when running 10 order teams.

    As for AHD vs KHD, the Locust is similarly useful for NCA. The odds are decent vs popular cheap KHD like ninja and Zeros in the active turn. You also got stealth and AHD is great vs lists with lots of hackable units. Sure, the locust is going to die in the passive turn to KHD but it dies to a lot of things like flamers just the same as Crocmen AHD. If it helps you break apart a JSA HI link team of doom, then hes worth the sacrifice.
     
    #33 Death, Dec 15, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    We at least strongly agree on one point ;P
     
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    can we stop with all the bitter shit?

    stop trying to Poo Poo everything and start learning how to use what we have and what situations assault is useful in.

    So its not hte big use everytime skill, wooptie frakking doo, good!
    that stops the game being boring as squat, the skill hover does have soem very effective uses as IJW has pointed out.
     
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  16. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    If you're facing a competent ARO, assault let's you cover the distance with less chance at damage.

    Without assault:
    Domaru move, target shoot, Domaru can dodge to avoid damage, chain rifle to reciprocate damage, or move into BTB and tank the damage.

    With assault,
    Domaru assault, target can now decide to shoot, or melee. But the domaru now has a strong FTF option, and needn't expose himself to another ARO. (which in both the dodge, or chain rifle example, he did)
     
  17. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, Domaru could still fire with his Pistol to have a FtF with better odds to win it.
     
  18. Aldo

    Aldo Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure CC on 23s imposing a -3 on the opponent is better than two dice on 12s
     
  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    No, I was commenting the post just up mine for the case where there was no Assault used/available for Domaru (like in N2).
     
  20. Aldo

    Aldo Well-Known Member

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    Ah, sorry.

    He also had them Grenades.