Fatality 2 with B5...

I put together a spreadsheet/charts based on dice-calc output. I included URL references so you can double-check my work.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oJEfZdPcF883cpZz_2HItHh0x9p2n40g26M0wrYd9FM/edit?usp=sharing

 

The other point of comparison that's worth making is an Intruder and Hsien. I expect that vs the Ryuken Tarik will compete effectively with these MSV2 options.

You also need a high ARM target. This will largely not effect Tarik but will significantly lower the success of other attackers. Tarik vs Grey/VK APHMG would be a good point of comparison here. Again I expect to see Tarik is competitive.

I would do it myself but lack decent internet right now.

What we're saying is that FAT2 competes with all the specialist tools in these matchups and does it at a lower cost*. Crits are just that powerful.

* FA2 excepted. Which you'll note is only found on one troop that and that I and other have long considered problematic on the Kriza HMG.

 

For me, its not about the math with Fat2. It should come at a higher cost, but thats with many things currently (see ya SMG).

For me its about the play interactions. I got ripped by a Swiss and Tarik in the past, but it felt totally wrong playing against Tarik.
Crits always feel lucky and I don't know any player who accepts crits without a "o, come on!", because they ruin the FtF mechanic.
I like that crits are in the game as a possibility to break the odds, i.e. with a combi against a Jotum in cover, but they should appear only
in rare cases, not at a normal appearance rate.

CB learned that symbiomates led to negative play experiences and thus was one reason for the "Tohate". Now they hopefully learn soon that Fat2 will lead to equally negative play experiences. I can only speak for me, but I had these already while playing against B4 Tarik in the past.

From the math standpoint, I don't like that Fat2 is good in nearly every rangeband. You can effort to go for a sniper in 47" inches or a Ryuken-9 in Supression at 7" with the same weapon (given it reaches to 47") and have fair odds to win the FtF. So you only have to bring your 5man Fat2 and you're fine with any threat.

 

Exactly, things like linked Tarik or Sheeskin are 41% crit chance in 48" range. It's insane that you could stack up -12 and still have a 40%+ chance of saying to your opponent "I don't care about your tactical choices, about your modifiers, about your ARM; Tarik shoots, your specialist sniper Marksman MSV2 with no mods dude shoots back and still dies two times out of five".

That's a middle finger, not interactive gameplay.

 

Maybe FAT2 could be adjusted so that the increased crit chance only works in green weapon range. This way, fishing for crits in every situation would not be possible and the opponent still has the means of manipulating an engagement to their advantage if they are far/close enough.

 

I don't have an issue with the ranges it works at. My issue is the way it counters Vis Mods, ARM and simultaneously improves the odds of winning the FTF.

 

That was kind of my point. If it was restricted to green range, you could still rely on all that if you manage to outmanoever them instead of being screwed either way.

 

Yeah, but that introduces a weird mechanic rather than using existing ones of achieve a similar intent.

Compare "FAT2 gives +2 DAM and -3 to FTF (as per FA2)"* as an idea. It'd leave them as great active turn killers for dealing with Kamau level AROs (particularly linked) and would make them a good tool vs Vis Mods and High ARM. However Vis MODs and High ARM effective at mitigating FAT2 attacks.

 

It's not a bad idea and it would adress the inherent problem with FAT2, but I'm not a big fan of just adding more skills that arbitrarily add MODs to FTF rolls without any sort of tradeoff or effort (I don't like FA either). I'd like to think that the game's core revolves around getting your pieces into a favourable position first in order to tip the balance of the dice in your favour. Skills like FA and FAT2 just work every time and at all times, which takes the first part out of the equation. Tying a bonus to green range would maintain this core principle and it would actually reward good play instead of handing out free gifts.

 

Yeah. I get your point but I'd prefer to limit the mechanics that are added and the green range solution doesn't resolve my fundamental issue if it still relies on Crits. Crits eliminate multiple defensive options simultaneously, they're an extremely heavy handed way to buff a trooper.
This means your solution effectively limits Tarik as an option vs a Kamau MSR at range but does nothing to the Tarik vs Avatar on Suppression inside 16" match up: this is just as problematic.

 

Change how crits work, to instead of instakill/wound make them do +3DAM. Leave FAT2 as is, change the core of what is wrong with it, and that is crit mechanic itself.
Oh, and add cost to FAT2, stop giving it for free.

 

I like shooting things with Symbiomates with the Khawarij Spitfire, sure

 

Nah, if you're making that fundamental a change to the game you're better off significantly reducing the cost of ARM.

If FAT2 was more reasonably costed in comparison to Vis Mods, ARM and MSV I'd probably be arguing that it feels bad but maths out fine.

 

Proposal I made requires no point cost adjustment across all factions, and makes minimal rules change. What you proposed needs months of work and N4 to happen. What I proposed needs couple of sentences to change on infinity wiki.

 

Those are amazing words to write after proposing to change how critical work. Especially when you propose something that ignores non-damage critical effects.

I'm going to propose a simple rules change for Sepsitor, adding one sentence "The human player loses automatically." That only affects one faction, on one weapon, that should be less work than changing cries, right?

 

You proposed changing a fundamental mechanic that affects every unit in the game.

 

Yes. Same effect for everyone. No need to invest time into individual unit balance.

 

You seriously propose a crit against a Jotumn is the same as a crit against a fusilier?

 

Exactly THAT.
crit are the worst mechanic of infinity and fatL2 is the worst of the worst

-

but changing crit is just not going to happen, changing fatL2 must happen, so some propositions:

fatl2 give +3 DMG (and no 1= crit)
and/or
fatl2 make you win the roll when both gets crits (and no 1= crit)
or
fatl2 cost 1 CAP more but same as it is
or
fatl2 is available to all factions (YOLO)

even the fanatic of fatL2 will agree that this thing doesn't cost enough