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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member
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    And you are on the receiving end...

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Everyone should play Ramah or Shas...problem solved...this way everyone is on equal fighting terms when it comes to crit :D
     
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  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Since the book with the FAT lvl 2 rules are still fresh from the printing machine I guess there is no point to expect a change any time soon.

    But what about FAT lvl 2 saying : "a crit inflicts two wounds instead of one".

    That way you still improve the crit mecanics but you don't reward reckless play. TO snipers and big ARO pieces will remain as much a threat as before.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well it would be better in a way that FAT2 won't win F2F that often.

    But it still invalidates cover/ARM in hard way ;/ (TAG in cover etc.)

    But at least the vis mods would matter more (and to most such units single crit is deadly as much as double wound on a single crit).

    Yet another reason to cut the rules out of printed stuff.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I understand the point that you're trying to communicate. Are you saying CB are looking at how Fatality functions and are considering changes?
     
  6. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Frankly I think Crits are already too strong AND ARM/BTS are too expensive stats on troops.

    Fat2 just makes those issues exponentially worse.

    Also - going from B4 to B5 means going from 41% chance to crit to 48%. So, 1/2 of the time you will crit.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    41% is the chance with Burst 5.
     
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Plz, good @HellLois ... Fix this problem.

    I used to stoke positiveness. Reason I'm being inflammatory is this single issue.

    I did not imagined I would see 41% crit happening, I never imagined Infinity could be played with no brain.

    I can swallow literally anything this game poses me. Game is great, I am quite sure I'll be in this ship til one of us sink. But this..

    Its way worse than anything.
     
  9. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Whenever the crit mechanic itself becomes the topic of discussion people seem to fall pretty quickly into one of two camps.
    • Those who like it
    • Those who dislike it, but willingly tolerate it as they see the purpose it serves (and can't come up with a reasonable alternative)
    • (and technically a third camp who actively hate it, but they tend not to play or post)
    When Fatality 2 was introduced, it triggered (for want of a better word) the second group, but didn't quite push over the threshold into "intolerable", largely because it was limited to BS13 troopers, who couldn't link. There was no possibility of B5 and the 41% crit, and stacking a -12 invalidated the skill anyway.
    The ability of B4 weapons with fatality to link, creating B5, and the arrival of a BS15 trooper (who can also link and carries a B4 weapon) just seems to have pushed people in the second camp too far in what they "enjoy" from the game.
     
  10. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    tbh. I find crit kinda cheap mechanic...yea yea, it's a luchy shot, but basically if you are unlucky with rolls, it already throws away any kind of tactics out of the window...you did everything perfect, almost had impossible odds for enemy to win, yet, he got lucky with those rolls and with crits just killed all you effective pieces. I mean, every army has few of those key elements in army, you don't have 10 HMG's so you don't care when you loose one, you usually have 1-2, and you might play em perfect, enemy is hitting you on 1, you are hitting him on 16...well, you rolled 12,13,14,15...he rolled 1...guess what, you just died...yay...good for me setting up this perfect scenario just to get killed by pistol shot for example.

    And always in game when crit happens either from my troops or enemy, there is always that feeling, yea, you just won because of luck...you should have lost that fire fight by any normal means, yet..because of luck, that you kinda 'cheated'...it just gets worse if you have like 4-5+ crits in game...
     
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  11. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    The problem with "a critical inflicts two wounds instead of one" is all of the various and complicated ammunition types. See "Critical hit with ADHL or Stun Ammo". :-/

    We've already been around this road with intuitive attacks getting crits with Sepsitor, or critical hits with the light smoke grenade launcher. A rule for critical effects on BS Attacks cannot assume that the BS Attack causes a wound by default.
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Check rules.

    Fatality Lv2 works even if you are at 0 BS or below.
     
  13. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    He meant that if you gave Tarik -12 then he had 1 roll on the dice that would crit, like normal, instead of the 2 that Fat2 gives.
     
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  14. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    For those interested, ran the numbers on ability to win a face to face against 2 common ARO pieces, compared to ~similarly costed units.



    upload_2019-4-5_14-10-8.png upload_2019-4-5_14-10-12.png
     
  15. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    But also keep in mind that crits offset. So if you crit (41% chance), it is impossible to take a wound or otherwise be affected. So even if the target rolls a crit, your own crit protects you from its affects.

    Just something to keep in mind.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    Was the Swiss using surprise against the Q-Drone, or is that just the passive -6 hit modifier?
     
  17. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Passive -6.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The issue isn't really those two. Neither of those two are maxing Vis Mods or ARM defensively: they rely on their own strength in Burst and BS rather than passive defence. This is the best situation vs FAT2 as it gives you the best chance to put the FAT2 down if it doesn't Crit.

    Compare instead vs a Suppression Fire Section-9 or a PH MK2 Sniper ( or even a Swiss ML or a Cutter). The units rely far more on their passive defensive abilities (which they pay through the nose for) than Burst or BS.

    The issue with FAT2 isn't the odds of winning any particular FTF rather it is that it invalidates a lot of passive defensive skills. The skills are amongst the most expensive skills/attributes in the game.

    If Tarik was FAT1 FA1 you'd get similar numbers without the deleterious effect on MODs/ARM as defensive options. FAT2 is the only tool you need for FTF shooting: yes you might be better off moving to be optimal firing position, but you never need a different tool. And it's not like Haqq hasn't been given tools that are specifically designed to counter high ARM/vis MODs outside of FAT2 with bulk EM and a DAM16 MSV12 gun.
     
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  19. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I don't have pretty charts like @Tom McTrouble , but...


    Fully linked Tarik Spitfire vs. Ryuken-9 SMG (suppressive): 41% / 21%
    Kriza Borak HMG vs. Ryuken-9 SMG (suppressive): 31% / 24%
    Swiss HMG vs. Ryuken-9 SMG (suppressive): 44% / 14%

    So the Swiss is still the best, not even taking surprise shot into account.
     
  20. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    The excel sheet I use doesn't take armor into account, which I'm aware is a huge component of this analysis. As a quick and dirty analysis it does show that linking Tarik really gives him a higher ceiling at extreme ranges.