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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I'll give you that... but that's a different situation. SF means no link anyway, which seems to be the main sticking point for those that don't decry FAT2 because they actually just hate the crit mechanic in general.

    Edit: forgot a negative in there.
     
    #101 Sabin76, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, I find FAT2 a stupidly designed rule in general regardless of linking. It's 1 tier less stupid than Ghazi in terms of retarded game design.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Welcome to the jungle, so to say... an old gripe has been the lack of proper term definition, and how we have rules that are the same (in practice) about 95%, but instead of using the same text, changing the minimal parts to obtain the final result, we get rules written from zero, generating problems in understanding (plus people tend to read the rules they use, not all the rules).

    Nope, the problem comes from different wordings in different languages, I'm afraid. Because "resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado" means "roll of 1 showingon the dice", not the english version of "roll result of 1" (Fat2 spanish version).

    This means 10% crit in english, 15% crit in spanish. Critting on attack means you can't lose, even if you don't win, and since the attacker usually rolls first... well, me rolling a crit on attack means my opponent needs exactly his edge number, a 5% that tends to not happen much but devastates the defender's morale.
    Also, both Tarik and Sheskin have 2 wounds, so they care little for returning fire at first.

    Yep, it has been noted that Fatality 2 on ARO pieces with Burst 1-2 was, in fact, desirable, while instead has been placed on profiles with Burst 4 when lone, 5 when linked... and with high BS value to boot (14 for Tarik, which means he crits on 1 and 20, and 15 on Sheskin, meaning crits on 19 and 20... and, because of the wording in spanish, 1 too).
     
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  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Oh crap, so nobody actually coordinates the Spanish and English text, rules are written in Spanish, but the updates are made on the English layer and not reverse-coordinated onto the Spanish one? And nobody caught the difference between natural die result (Spanish) and the test value result (English) and we can't tell what's RAI and both RAW are mutually exclusive?! :o

    Holy hell. Wow.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Welcome to "all the fun, none of procedures" approach ;P

    (probably)

    Though it would seems likely its the case as we have several times now the example from CB "we didn't knew it works that way" while the community already discussed something to the death (and why it's bad/broken).
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's happened a few times, especially when deadlines are short, but in this case xagroth appears to be making a rules distinction that nobody else is reading that way, and that breaks the Attributes over 20 rule.
     
  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. I don't know Spanish, but if his translations of the FAT2 rule are correct, then the attribute 20+ rule doesn't even enter into it. There is, indeed, a difference in saying "a die result of..." and "a die roll of..." the former being modified by the 20+ rule and the latter not.
     
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  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That's cause I care little for arguing while bored in the office, what can I do if the system was totally down but check the minutiae? ;)
    Also me being one of the few braving the language barrier (or crazy enough to post in both the spanish and english forums) might have something to do with that.

    I will insist, however, that the spanish wording makes a distintion in the attribute over 20, because of how it's constructed, pointing to "look at the dice, not the result of the check".
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    @ijw
    Well, count me in as well then, because yeah "resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado" means literally "a result of one obtained on the die", not a modified test value. It means a natural die roll of 1, which results in a 15% crit chance on BS15 at +6 (range, link) mods for a single burst.

    At Burst 5 it's an insane [1 - 0.85^5 = 1 - 0.44] 56% chance for a crit. That can't be intended?
     
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  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well we are already breaking "attribute below 0 rule"....
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yes, it literally means that. But the Attributes over 20 rule works by altering the result on the die. Unless it gets added at some point, Infinity doesn't have a concept of unmodified die results.
     
  12. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Game language doesn't really work like that, I'm afraid. You need to specify that all rules refer to test values and nowhere refer to natural / unmodified die results if you want to achieve that. Especially if you use language like that Spanish sentence which directly refers to "obtaining a 1 on the die" instead of "obtaining a test value of 1" (rolling a "1" is completely different from being at -6, rolling a 7 and thus obtaining a value of 1 in the test).

    This is our feedback for CB, the language is inconsistent - both with industry standards and internally inconsistent between language variants. We understand the challenges of designing a game in one language and the major release variant being another language, but please understand that the company needs to devote resources to resolving these issues.

    People like @HellLois or @Bostria need to be aware of that if quality assurance and complaints about the ruleset are of any priority at all.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    To repeat from other threads, both languages refer to the 'result' of a die for Fatality, and the Attributes over 20 rule changes the 'result'.

    Note that Attributes over 20 is the only rule in Infinity that alters the result of a die roll. Everything else is a MOD to the Attribute that you're checking against.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  14. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I agree with Nuada to some extent, ultimately the clarification of the rules to such a standard that would appease the forums at large is unrealistic.
    I think that abritraions in cases where the interpretation isn't immediately clear should be published in a better method than they currently are(i.e not the forums) but once done so it shouldn't be necessary to argue the wording.
     
  15. locksmith

    locksmith comlog active

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    [​IMG]

    It's your right to give any feedback you like, but for us as consumers to declare that the company has responsibilities towards us is making a false presumption. We are customers, not clients. Corvus doesn't owe us 'industry standards' if there even is such a thing, and calling a lack of 1:1 terminology match between 2 languages a matter of 'quality assurance' is pretty over the top.

    For myself, they've been a reliable producer for at least 10 years and I don't see any need for haughty declarations like yours.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Does anyone actually like Fatality Level 2? Why is it still in the game? At least Tohaa players like symbiomates.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm guessing they've either outsourced or stopped playtesting this stuff. The Spiral Corps batrep made it pretty clear that they're not dialed into the game mechanics any more.
     
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  18. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    Sigh. I now have to ask if you think the people playing the battle report are game designers or game testers.

    Or, is there some small chance that Bostria is not all things to the company? Is it possible, or even likely that his company responsibilities are not all encompassing?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But he’s the Bostria, the Great and Powerful, isn’t he? After all, it couldn’t possibly be that videos are recorded at point Q in development, but the rule isn’t finalized until point V in development...
     
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  20. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    What? No.

    He’s clearly also the lawyer, janitor, and caterer. (not in that order)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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