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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. k104agi

    k104agi Member

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    I didn't meant to offend you, I'm sorry for that. I am wary of Fatality Issue, too. I think I have to step back and see how discussion goes with caution.

    -Let's not be 'personal' again. Number of plays matter, though not essentially.
     
    #81 k104agi, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's because going above BS20 is relatively hard to achieve, and CC doesn't happen very often and it's at Burst 1 so extra crit chance doesn't wind up being awful.

    Those are rarer instances

    FAT2 on the other hand? ALL THE TIME LUL. Promotes brain dead gameplay. There is no counterplay, no gear you can take or avoid it. No strategy to change it like picking off a weak link member to lower MODs.

    It woudn't matter as much if it didn't auto override armour or if Infinity wasn't so hyper lethal with crits heavily undermining expensive 1W gunfighters. But that's a discussion for the crit mechanic in general.
     
    #82 Triumph, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I'd say both. The problem is, of course, to know which one is the selected by CB for "final implementation", so to speak.

    My gripe is that there are clear and important differences between spanish and english rules. The 'mates situation, in which the english version adds "as a model" (to the requirement of being present on the table) and "Impersonation" (to the list of examples) instead of saying "deployed on the table and not in Marker State", for example, baffles me.

    The game has terms. Not using those terms is... extra effort.

    From the wiki in spanish, over 20:

    Bolded text is clear: for the final result of the roll, ADD to the Dice Roll (resultado obtenido en el dado == number showing in the dice) the number over 20 (aquella cifra que superaba el 20 == that number which surpassed 20).

    This means "resultado obtenido en el dado" = rolled number is not the same as Attribute test.

    From the wiki, in spanish, Fatality:
    Again, "resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado" == roll dice of 1. It states nothing about adding anything, but most importantly, Fatality in the Spanish Version checks the dice roll for a 1, while the english version checks the BS roll (in which both roll over 20 versions agree is target 20+ with 1d20+X)
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Is there someone on the forum who will be at Adepticon? Can someone please ask them about this topic during the Adepticon seminar?
     
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Are there any Americans who do not think this rule is good for this game ?
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    ?
     
  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Probably some kind of joke referring to historical stereotype of Americans not being fans of board games with reduced interaction between players (look up "ameritrash vs eurogames"). Which is probably one of the biggest flaws of Fatality lvl2 rule.
     
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  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    The argument is that Attributes above 20 alter the result on the die. As far as I can see, this is the same in both languages.
    "the player adds to his result on the die the amount by which the Attribute exceeded 20"
    "el jugador sumará al resultado obtenido en el dado aquella cifra que superaba el 20"

    The 'result' of a Roll is, literally, defined as what you roll on the d20:
    "roll one d20 and compare the result"
    "se tira el d20 y se compara el resultado"

    Your reading would make the Attributes above 20 rule only affect the chance of critting on high rolls, instead of altering the result.

    So with an Attribute of 21, rolling a 1 gives a 2 on the die, and with an Attribute of 25 rolling a 1 gives a 6 on the die.

    I get provided with files in English. If I was involved in the translations, I'd be making sure that the rules were the same in both languages. :white_frowning_face:

    As already mentioned in other threads, the English version of SymbioMates is more recent. I don't know why that change didn't get translated back into the Spanish version, you'd have to ask CB.

    In this case the English version is definitely the right one, because I discussed it with Interruptor this week - to get permission to change the SymbioBomb Requirements on the wiki, before it's added to the April FAQ. That is presumably when the Spanish SymbioMon Requirements will get updated.
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Semantics here. The result on the die gets, indeed, modified. But in Spanish, the text is cleary saying to see the die roll, not the die result

    The difference is quite clear:
    • die result => number you check against the attribute value.
    • die roll => whatever the die shows.

    Fair enough, and it really is a bad position for you to be, since people wants FAQ > PDF > Rules...
    Plus the confusion with the PDF profiles Vs Army everytime they release some new profiles :/
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Why do both use result/resultado?

    You're making a distinction (die roll vs die result) that doesn't appear to exist in the rules, and that would actively break the rule for Attributes over 20.

     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    @xagroth
    Please bear with me as I'm a newb in this particular game, but did a lot of game rules language as translator / editor in board games and RPGs. Can you please explain in plain words where the high crit probabilities (41%, etc) are coming from?

    I'm looking at the Wiki and game examples [ http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Fatality ]. The statement there is that not only, as usual, results of "the required number" (say, "12" for BS12) will be a crit, but also "1", always. Not natural dice rolls, as known in other game language, a result of a roll is the final modified dice roll, the in-game math, not what's visible on the die.

    Now, high BS, if treated as high CC, means that BS 21 (+3 good range, +3 link, for example) is achievable for some models. That results in a +1 to BS rolls, which "broadens the crit range", because physical roll of "20"+1 becomes a RESULT of 21 (crit) and a physical roll of "19"+1 becomes 20 (crit, broadened crit band, as per CC rules).

    According to Fat2, a RESULT of "1" is also a crit roll, but it's not achievable in this case. A physical roll of "1"+1 is a RESULT of 2. No crit.

    Hence, the crit chance under BS15 Fat2 with +6 mod is still 10%, 2/20 (19,20).

    If you manage to get a +12 modified and effective BS 27, then your crit chance is indeed ridiculous, but has nothing to do with Fat2, because you cannot achieve a RESULT of 1 with BS higher than 20.

    Effectively, Fat2 enhances crit chance by 5% and only on BS tests within the 1-20 value scope. As soon as 21+ is achieved, Fat2 has no interaction.

    The misunderstanding, in my opinion, stems directly from the lack of clear distinction in design language between roll (test) RESULTS and what's physically rolled on the die (natural die roll, physical die roll, etc.).

    Of course, open to corrections if I got anything wrong :)
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Include Burst and it makes sense. 10% crit chance per dice, with five dice rolls. Odds of not critting 5 times are .9^5, so crits odds are 1-.9^5 =~ 41% .
     
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  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Oh, OK. CC is Burst 1 usually. But yeah, that gets ugly fast in high burst indeed. Wow.
     
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  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's per burst. The problem people are complaining about is using that mechanic on a high burst profile like the Tarik Spitfire or Sheskiin Red Fury (which both get burst 5 in a link).

    I want to make it clear that I actually have not staked a position in this argument (whether it's good or bad), I've simply been trying to make sure people understand the math correctly. To wit, the 41% chance is only achievable on normal rolls. It's 38.9% with B5 against someone actually AROing back. This goes down even more (~2% per burst or the AROing target) if the AROing troop is linked or has neurocinetics.
     
    #94 Sabin76, Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's incorrect.

    The chance to roll a crit with FAT2 on Burst 5 is indeed 41%.

    The chance to inflict a wound with a crit with FAT2 on Burst 5 is lower if someone contests with a face to face roll.

    Two different statements.
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea, 39% from 41% (if I recall correctly).

    Big change.
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it's a big change, I'm just saying his statement is incorrect. A roll becoming face to face doesn't change the amount at which FAT2 causes critical hits, just the amount of critical hits that cause wounds.
     
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, except I didn't say that the 38.9% was for rolling a crit. I think everyone here is talking about whether or not that crit actually goes through, or should, at least. Nor did I say the difference was large (I even spelled it out in my post). If the chance to "roll a crit" were 90%, but the chance to actually land that crit were only 2%, I don't think you'd be taken seriously for arguing about how horrible that 90% is for gameplay.

    That said, FAT2 on a spit/RF out of a link is a 34.4% chance to roll a crit which gives a 32.7% chance to land a crit if the target AROs. That's a 6% difference for adding the burst for FT. If 2% is insignificant to anyone, then 6% can't be that much more of a problem.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not. Having your crit blocked by a FAT2 model on SF mode is just as annoying.
     
  20. Dude

    Dude Lazy Bushi
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    It's pretty clear that he meant exactly what you're saying. Rolling at least one crit is ~41%. Your opponent can still negate your crit with his own, and the odds of that vary depending on the situation. It will not be nearly as large, though.

    For what it's worth, the odds of a non-Fatality burst 5 crit is ~22%.
     
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