Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.
I wonder which rules were then playtested xD
I don't speak or read Spanish, so please bear with me as I ask about these literal translations.
Both the rules in Spanish use a common term, "resultado obtenido en el dado".
In the Spanish text, attributes over 21 add their bonus "to the result obtained on the die". Is this correct?
In the Spanish text, Fatality 2 makes "a result of 1 obtained on the die" a critical. Is this correct?
If both of these statements are correct, then how is this different from the English text? If the +1 is ignored for Fatality 2, why is it not ignored for criticals on the high end of the spectrum?
Because the critical hit page says that any result (and it doesn't use "result on the dice") "equal or greater" than 20 is a critical hit and that attributes over 20 increase critical hit chance.
It's very literally impossible to interpret the high end of the spectrum in the same way as Xagroth is interpreting the low end of the spectrum.
That's why I said "similar." I know it won't be exactly the same. My point is that Fatality L2 seems to be another case of CB gaming their own points system.
But this interpretation is taking the same term from 2 different rules (result obtained on the die) and treating that term differently You want to add the bonus to the "result obtained on the die" to get a high roll critical. This process is completely understood and accepted. Why is it that when we have that same bonus, it doesn't apply to the "result obtained on the die" to get a low roll critical? You can't have it both ways, and we already know which way it's gone for years.
But it's not the same text in two different rules. It's two different texts, where one directs you to add surplus and the other does not.
As far as we know they're both meant to be the way as directed by IJW, but this doesn't change that Spanish rules undeniably does not convey this message with the same certainty that the English rules do.
But in the context of this discussion, the rule where the surplus is added still applies. Nothing in fatality 2 stops the surplus from being added, and the surplus is explicitly added to the same object that Fatality checks against, "the result obtained on the die".
Both rules use the same term in each language. Those terms vary slightly between the languages, but the relative basis of interpretation is the same.
If you took the English rules for attributes above 20 and combined then with a literal translation of the Spanish rules for Fatality 2, then we'd have some justified confusion. But that's not fair to anyone.
Summary of what I think about Fatality L2 :
1. It's a powerful skill, much disliked by people. the power itself is not a problem. How it is written and works(using crits) are problem. It can be changed to better way, but mathematically same.
2. But there are myths. I think people are overreacting to FAT 2. B4 or B5, it doesn't matter. It has its limits. You can deal with them with simple but essential strategies you always use.
1. Fatality L2 is definitely one of powerful skills. People usually dislikes this skill though, especially when they are getting hit by a model with this. They feel helpless and think FAT2 is unfair in some way, unlike other powerful firepower skills(Full auto, etc); additional crit chance on a natural role of 1? But it's basically the same as 'you get a critical role on a number just below your normal crit' (if your current converted BS is 16, 15 is also a crit). Corvus Belli can change that how rule is written somehow, since it's mathematically same but people dislikes it. Though may chances be same, Feelings matter.
Now increased critical hit chance itself. Should FAT2 work this way? Increasing crit chance? I also don't think so. Adding some BS, other skills, some equipments, there are many other ways. How FAT2 works can be changed differently, but mathematically almost same, especially when people feel disgusted and unfair by crit. Sincerely I hope so. Just change FAT2 to a way not affecting crit. Feeling is also a field CB should care about.
2. Onto other topic, to the real battlefield. So does B5 FAT2 ruin the game? No. Why the sky haven't fallen when Khawarij and Tarik with FAT2 & Spitfire appeared? Before Ramah, with spitfire B4 they already got 34% crit chance on their own. There were worries then, but the game haven't been broken yet. Are Haqqislam rosters dominated by Fatality gangs? No.
People just don't like how FAT2 works('damn crits!' - I feel same) and trying to prove it by shooting a dummy. But that's not a good way to prove how it's broken. You can do the same -proving its powerfulness - with Full auto, 5-man fireteam, TO camo surprise shot, Multi HMG, etc. Why do you consider a model with FAT2 is always acting in best situation? Having a big gun or Rambo guy in a faction itself is not a problem for the game. Has the best guys in many factions bothered you? yes. but has it broken the game? No. If one of them is omnipotent(like this - Apply it anywhere, Fight done, Clear!), that would be a major problem. Not just for you, but also for the game. Is FAT2 spitfire omnipotence? Clearly no.
You know why current FAT2 spitfire option is not broken yet;
limited weapon range(~24" of spitfire)
FAT2 user has to find best range, move to there and fight there. can't fight anywhere.
opponent having many ways to deal with it(Mines, Total reaction REM, Flash pulse REMs cutting out O' precious orders, Hiding troopers, Multi-ARO, ARO with Template weapons, Assassinating FAT2 model, Killing cheerleaders, Suppressive fire, etc - the basic and advanced strategies - the typical ways - you usually use when you face a strong direct firepower.)
removed ways to dealing with difficult enemy(No fiday in Ramah, specifically)
removed Long-ranged firepower options(32-48 ranged is a challenge to Ramah)
Khawarij having 1 wound, Tarik having 55pts(Any faction has Rambo in this pts range)
So many reasons.
Any model has when and where it shines. FAT2 troopers may be Rambo, but mortal Rambo. Don't be panicked when they get their moments and Don't be panicked by having a dummy get shot. Calculating chances are one of good ways of experimenting, but don't have your sight narrowed by it. Don't assume your worst - why enemy best trooper is always at his best? Why bother giving him a chance to fire? You have 3 turns, many deployment options, and much more in the game. I know you don't have your troop stand in open field without any thinking. You are strategist who can just prevent FAT2 trooper having his glory days.
One thing I will point out is that Fat2 has better returns the lower your BS is. People seem to be upset that even at -9s the chance to win an uneven fight is high due to higher chance of critting.
The burst bonus for links is the biggest factor in increasing FAT2 to crazy odds, I wasn’t too worried about the +3 BS bonus with Tariq, but with the Sheskin... I don’t think anyone should have a 3/20 chance to crit in favorable odds with B5.
so... what are you leaving out to ARO against fully linked HMG's or spitfires that you expect to not lose the F2F? a B5 Fatality lvl2 trooper is dealt with the same way as another fully linked attack piece - hide from it during its active turn and punish it during yours....
the sky is not falling.
For that I have mixed thoughts. Yes, I understand your point and worry about this point, too. I think it may be one of most important thing defining FAT2. As you said, unless suffering -12, FAT2 user has static crit chance. It's definitely bright side, though having limits. I think it's close to 'You can gamble... almost anywhere.' For example, even If Khawarij with spitfire has final BS 2, he still has 32~34% crit chance. but assuming worst situation for the Khawarij - using N3 calculator - It's 32.7% for Khawarij / 18.7% No one / 48.51% for enemy. Would you do that, even if you have other troopers who has proper weapon and is in good range? Risking good attack piece/points/orders/etc? You can't guarantee a winning game betting on 32.7% chance. It's not a wise choice. It just could be understood as unique possibility. but I think we need more discussions on that.
It seems Spanish version and English ver. is at conflict this moment. let's wait and see which side it is officially ruled. Though I see that pure BS21 shooting won't happen a lot. Anyone would hide/take cover whenever possible, FAT2 appearance or not. If frenzied Achilles/Jeanne on open field is got shot by crit, it's their fault, not FAT2's.
It is very likely not intended to give that... basically capped at 2/20, and not giving any benefit for anyone with an effective BS of 21+. That said, any B4 linked troop of BS 12+ can get these same crit odds or better on a targeted troop.
Edit: looks like @k104agi beat me to it.
The problem is not things dying to it in reactive. The problem is that enhanced crits allow him to be effective in situation he is not supposed to be - and without paying anything for it. For example - Tarik is almost as effective at shooting at TO/ODD as a MSV2-equipped units. MSV2 is amongst the most expensive options the unit might have, and is countered by White Noise. FAT2 is free (reference - Khavariji), countered only by maxing out on negative MODs (and that works only on haqq troops, Sheskiin doesn't care), and is even more effective against targets with no BS MODs. Have I mentioned it's (apparently) free?
So, while it won't bring down the sky (or invalidate MSV2), doesn't it seem that FAT2 deserves a price hike?
Spoiler: math from http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com
Unlinked Tarik vs Swiss in Suppressive
Unlinked custom Tarik with MSV2 instead of FAT2 vs Swiss in Suppressive
Linked Tarik vs Swiss in Suppressive
Linked custom Tarik with MSV2 instead of FAT2 vs Swiss in Suppressive
That increase in the chance to take a wound back is no small matter, though.
Why the words are focused in Tarik, btw?
Sheskiin's worse. If FAT2 rule follows Spanish version I'd rather call her walking death.
Oh yeah, go hide. Speculo killer likes your status ;)
For Khavarij? Maybe, although it will likely only slow him down a bit. For two-wound Tarik or Sheskiin? Hardly - chances are, they'll still take out Swiss (or even a Cutter) without going Unc even once. That's exactly what OP was talking about: one of them is not the best tool you could have in this exact situation, but still a tool that will bring the needed result with acceptable probability - and with an additional benefit of being even better in situations it was actually intended for.
I'm talking about linked versions, of course. Unlinked Tarik/Khav is pretty much okay.
For me - because I've already played against linked Tarik, but not against Shasvastii =)
It actually felt like he is somewhat slowed down by his link. That's an opportunity cost. My opponent from that game actually considers switching him for a khav in link (same firepower, though with a bit less durability) in addition to running Taric solo. Thus, I feel like there can be a meaningful discussion whether he warrants an increase in price for linkability or not. I would need to play against Shasvastii to get a feel for Sheskiin the same way. At a glance, though, Shas doesn't seem to have as much face-to-face attackers as Ramah, and they don't have the safety net that Ramah ghulam links do in Doctor+.
Guys, You've dealt with Fireteam monsters good for whole N3. Why suddenly 'End of the World' mode? And why only assume best situation for Tarik or Sheskiin? You play Infinity with 300pts, with many resources. Missions, Terrains, bunch of models, Infiltrators, Templates, mines, spamming, your fireteam, REMs, good deployment, etc. Just think Fatality L2 as another BS+ or having given them HMG. Crits in -9 situation aside, it's basically similar to that.
Also I don't understand the logic that the cost of Fatality L2 is nearly free. Each faction has very good models of their own. For example, Jeanne of PanO has Inspiring Leadership. How would you guess the cost of Inspiring Leadership in this case? HI base stats, Frenzy, NWI, weapons aside - well, 1~5pts? Is that skill so cheap and nearly free? You can't apply same frame for every faction.
Do they crit on 1s? :)
They require brains. They require skills.
FAT2 require nothing. You just shoot and get the results.
Totally perfect situation. Eh?
What's important is not Crit on 1. Read #68, if you please. it's basically the same as 'you get a critical role on a number just below your normal crit' (if your current converted BS is 16, 15 is also a crit). Corvus Belli can change that how rule is written somehow, to a level mathematically same, since people dislike it - especially 1 on Dices. Essentially, this Crit on 1 is just a way of expressing firepower enhancement. I think you are getting emotional about Crits. Getting +1B from Fireteam is similar to getting BS 1~2.
Most of non-Fatality fireteam Rambo also doesn't need brain. It's like hot butter knife. Shoot and done. Why suddenly people require standard or price for new fireteams? Also you always must take care of fireteam, weapon range band, mission, etc.
And that goes to personal level, mate.
I'm stopping here, otherwise the topic will be closed. Thank you for intensive opinion; read it with caution, but not quite sure until now. Thx anyway, akasha.
Added) And you said other links are no brainer, but that I can assure you No. They are not.
They cannot rambo like FAT2. Play enough games, that will make you can easily see them outranged, going into hard circumstances - ofc they don't have crit support.