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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    We really need to work on a change-log....

    Not related, but it has been demonstrated that FAT2 doe add to units cost, I have to point out that SWC is also a cost not just points.
     
    Ogid and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    How? I don't think SWC increased for Tariq when he got FAT2.
     
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  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    The normal SWC for LI heavy weapons like spitfire such as Tariq or less debatable Khawarij is 1, 1,5SWC is normally reserved for MI troops.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    The SWC cost was the same before Fat2 existed.
    Even if we ignore that (say, because we could assume that pre-Fat2 cost was adjusted, then immediately increased back with Fat2), MI and LI are just meaningless labels. Khawarijis are 1W BS13 unit,Tarik is a 2W BS13 monster and they aren't in the same category with basic BS 10-11 troopers who typically get an SWC discount.

    If anything, having SWC-discounted weapons on 20+ pts infantry is more of a perk of some units (like Muyibs) rather than the norm. Incidentally, this is also a pts range occupied by MI, but I think the connection between that label and SWC cost, design-wise, is indirect.

    Regardless, if just take those units at their face value, a lot of units with 2W and decent shooting pay 2 SWC for high burst weapons whereas Tarik pays 1.5 as a baseline. Sure, those used to be mostly HI, but HI label is straight disadvantage, you'd think it shouldn't increase the cost...
     
    #484 Barrogh, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It was not I had double checked it with the old pdfs, regardless, while the LI and MI lines are blurry at present, the distinction between MI SWC and LI SWC is not, SWC increase was always one way to bring in points discount for heavy weapons.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Seems to have more to do with BS and extra supporting skills. Nearly all MI with Spitfire has BS 13 and/or an extra ability that aids shooting such as Camouflage. There are a few stand-out profiles; Moderators with their BS 10 only costs 0,5, Devas with their MSV2 only costs 1 where other LI with the same configuration costs 1,5 or even 2, and Samaritans which in spite of being dense with extra skills do not cost the 1,5 SWC that the Legate does.

    However, since FAT2 was added to Khawarijs we have a comparison profile prior to when they were re-baked and they did not gain extra SWC cost when this happened from what I can remember. I can only imagine that Super-Jump and BS 13 qualified as such extra supporting skills on their own.
     
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  7. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    @psychoticstorm SWC costs being tied to troop type is pretty redundant at this point. It is nothing more than a rule of thumb that is overturned pretty much everyhwere.

    Excessive rambling starts:

    Yadus are MI and pay HI SWC costs. (rightly so some people might say). Namur and Mukhtar on the other hand pay LI SWC prices. And at least the Namur with TI also brings effectively ARM3. So Why pay Yadus more? One pays for the label the other for what the stats look like.

    We can also look at prowlers. MI with a spitfire for 2 SWC. Intruder are commonly thought as super powerful but they still only pay MI costs. Well okay prowlers are camo infiltrators putting the spitfire directly in amazing rangebands. So maybe that is why the cost is bumped. The only other camo+infiltrating spitfire in the game (that i can think of) is a Daofei and since he is HI he already pays 2 SWC so we can't compare but i can see why that would be a reason. So SWC costs are linked to the skills the unit have! Oh wait why does the wildcat pay 2 SWC on his rocket launcher? Because of courage? And what exactly makes the Father Knight ML cost only 1.5 SWC? Maybe it is cheaper if your BTS is high enough?

    So Fat L2 costs SWC? But only on burst 4 weapons? Very specific. I can see that on the Kawarijs. So let's look at Sheeskin. 1 SWC for a red fury with 2W BS15 and Fat L2. So i assume a profile like hers without FatL2 would pay 0.5 SWC for a red fury? Because that would be apparantly the LI price (authorized bounty hunters, Zerat). But the Mukhtar with red fury also pays 1 full SWC for his red fury even though he is LI. So it seems like there is an MSV2 tax as well. But only on certain profiles? Looks like it is only on units that have the skill only on specific profiles. If the base profile has MSV2 you do not have the tax. Okay, oddly specific but okay. That thought fits for Ramah. And the Spitifre order sergeants. The Deva is excempt again though.

    Oh and the Heckler also pays 1 SWC for a red fury even though he is LI. Maybe because Camo again? Oh wait, Krakot also pays 1 SWC and no camo. So is there even a SWC tax on Sheeskin? I'm kinda lost. What even is the red fury LI SWC cost?

    Excessive rambling ends

    tl;dr

    The SWC cost is way more complicated and sometimes random (Looking at you wildcat and Father Knight) than just according to unit type.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    khawarij-old.jpg
    Khawarij profiles with Fatality L1 went up by one point, the two profiles with Fatality L2 went up by one point and 0.5 SWC. The 1pt is pretty much rounding-error level, but they definitely pay extra SWC for FAT2.

    Tarik went down by 1pt and 0.5 SWC (on the Spitfire). There were clearly other cost changes going on as well for him, so it's harder to extrapolate from him.

    Sheskiin underwent enough changes that it's almost impossible to work out what she pays for Fatality L2.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *shrug* it's still extremely cheap for the performance and the SWC cost for LI and MI seems tied to abilities rather than classification.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yeah, like I said.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, it wasn't immediately apparent that you were only refuting my supporting argument and not my main point.
     
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  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    For the Legate and Krakot, it could be the FD... *shrug*
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    For the Legate, that profile has wacky SWC choices; why it costs *more* SWC to make the K1 Combi legate your Lt is beyond me. That was already a suboptimal choice.
     
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  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You'll get no argument from me on that point.