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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Kerr-Nau and Bit (KHDs with Maestro) beg to differ. Random goodies do, in fact, get handed out for free. See also HD+s costing the same as HDs or Dr+ the same as Dr.

    I'm less bothered by the fact that it's free than its effect on gameplay. The fact that's it's both free and has the effect it does is what has been egregious.
     
  2. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    Actually they changed the rules text in the wiki (Don't know about the book i'm not buying the books anymore)

    Now it specifically states that SF does not stack with Full Auto L2.

    "This Level is not applicable when the owner is in a state which imposes a negative MOD to the adversary (Suppressive Fire, for example)."

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Full_Auto
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If you're fishing for Crits against a heavy TAG (ARM8+), that's because your primary anti-TAG weapon(s) got blown to hell and you're down to Plan C or D.

    I don't want a game that you Auto-lose because I killed your 1 available model that can actually hurt my TAG. That's bad game design.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Needs a changelog or FAQ entry.
     
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  5. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I didn't notice until last week myself.
     
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  6. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    If you had 1 anti TAG weapon in your list, then you probably deserve to lose since those are countered so easy for so little points. Seriously, anti TAG weapons cost as little as 2-3 points.
    And as I said before, changing crits to do +3 DAM or +6 DAM you still get to wound a TAG with combi ( which is for some reason primary concern, TAG's weren't common when Tagline was a thing, seriously I think using them as an excuse is not warranted ).
    At any rate, if a TAG shoots your 10 point combi rifle shmuck he will likely stack so many modifiers against you that you would have better chances to survive by dodging anyway. Let him waste his limited orders. And most people will do that. You more expensive pieces with combi will likely have other uses, so you wouldn't use them against TAG's anyway, unless severely desperate and at that point you probably already lost a game and you opponent is just mopping up whats left.
    Not to mention, there is no ITS scenario where you auto lose when you don't have anything to kill enemy TAG with. This argument you made is invalid. Play for scenario objectives, ignore a TAG ( again, TAG's are not a thing, let's stop pretending they are common or an issue in general ) or kill cheerleaders.
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Stop pretending that ITS scenarios are the only way to play the game. Is the classic Kill-em-all scenario what Infinity is about? No. But it is something to think about when you are balancing the game!


    My standard list, regardless of faction, has an HMG or Spitfire, an ML or HRL, and a (multi) sniper rifle eating 4.5-5SWC. Then I have a Minelayer and a hacker or two eating the last SWC.

    Not all factions have 0SWC panzerfausts or blitzen or ADHLs.
     
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  8. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    The rule was changed at release vs the preview we got where it was initially stacking then forum posted that it didn't and wouldn't when the rule was released with 3rd offensive.

    It's been several months... the skills tree has it listed as updated in 3rd offensive and the skill itself shows 3rd offensive content at the top.

    The Wiki IS the rules as written in the books with FAQ below. It's not a living document and is the only compiled source of the rules available.

    EDIT: for reference

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Special:RecentChanges
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @dlfleetw It's not in the "new rules" pdf Infinity has up on its website. That's what most people would consider the "core source" for the rules.
     
  10. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    It was updated on 12/3 and is in that .pdf as well.

    Not sure what pdf you are looking at.[​IMG]

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yes it is. The New Rules link goes to:

    https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/skills/en/v1.7/skills.pdf

    p5 Full Auto L2, Requirements bullet 3:
    • This Level is not applicable when the owner is in a state which imposes a negative MOD to the adversary (Suppressive Fire, for example).
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Wack. I guess that's what I get for not updating my downloads.
     
  13. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    They are balancing Infinity for ITS, so alternative systems are not relevant in this case. With their current release schedule they are already struggling with balance, they can't really afford to balance stuff for other systems regardless of their popularity.
    Not all factions have those 3 weapons ( don't forget akrylat-kanone ), but they usually have at least one of those ( struggling to remember which one doesn't have any ), plus EM grenades are fairly cheap, so is CC skill and warbands that usually have it alongside AP/DA/EXP CCW. I think everyone has a cheap way to deal with TAG's directly, that is if we ignore killing cheerleaders as good way to deal against them indirectly. There are some missions where you get ADHL for free on some troops, and missions with panoplies where you can get some more weapons to deal with high ARM targets.
    There is a reason there are multiple topics calling for buffing TAG's and HI, and no topics calling for buffing crits or any of the heavy weapons/equipment meant to deal with those threats. So I still maintain that crits not autowounding high ARM targets is a non issue.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hunting Party is the only mission you get ADHLs for free on limited amount of troops.
    There are more examples of "kill 'em all" missions that missions that give ADHLs in ITS (Annihilation, Firefight, Decapitation, etc).
    I'd also like to remind you of the almost exponential nature of ARM and BTS where 9 is significantly better than 8 and 10 is almost godly compared to 9, particularly how they interact with Cover. I don't think a system that allowed both high values of ARM and removed auto-wound on lucky shots would be very well received.
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't elaborating because I've already did in this very thread and didn't want to repeat myself, but just so people don't have to skim through it again, short version:

    Because, in relative terms, if you shoot models you have business shooting (in your good rangeband, against something plain like core-linked line trooper), Fat2 is statistically less powerful than Mimetism, coming close to what +2 BS would do for your shooter instead. If you are making bad shots (in your -6 against good shooter with Mimetism+Cover etc.), then Fat2 is absurdly powerful, but that will only upgrade terrible odds to bad/unconvincing* odds that should not win you games alone consistently.

    * - as in, those odds would be considered decent, if those were odds of Reactive shooting (so those rounds paid in your opponent's orders) from one of several ARO pieces.

    It is true that Fat2 is non-interactive rule that also boils down to bruteforce stat, especially on BS 15 unit, and in that sense it isn't very fun, but that's probably its biggest folly.

    ...then again, this comes from HB main who is used to considering anything he owns dead the moment opponent can draw LoF on his turn, and calculates odds of survival of unit X in halves of enemy orders per friendly body until X is reached, so I can understand why stuff that empowers shooting upsets me less than maybe other people. Well, I still think it's a good mindset to have in Infinity, but that's something we could discuss another time.
     
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    This empirically incorrect.
    It seems to me that you haven’t taken into account the +1 damage for Fat1, because currently Fat2 clocks in at 0,95% better than mimitism and with over 0,50% better chance to survive. So yes, Fat2 is better than mimitism at both targets at optimal range and VASTLY better than mimitism if you’re in the bad range.
    Interestingly enough, Fat2 is also noticeably better than mimitism if you outrange your opponent while being in the good rangeband yourself, by over 2,50%.
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    In that case there's something wrong with @toadchild 's calculator, because it doesn't agree with you.

    Tarik Spitfire vs fully linked Fusilier MSR (link)
    51/23/26%

    Tarik Spitfire with Mimetism instead of Fatality L2 (link)
    52/28/20%

    Mimetism appears to be giving the same odds of inflicting damage (to within less than one percentage point), and substantially reduced odds of taking damage.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    No, I double checked, it 100% agrees with me. Although I can see the our approach is different, which is why we got 2 different results and none should be left out so let me correct this.

    My examples are always a lone fusilier with a combi (because I view them as pratice dummies), in which case Fat2 is stronger
    Vs Link teams Mimitism are marginally better (as your results)

    Interestingly, against everything with multiple bursts in ARO (Total Reaction, Suppresion, Enhanced Reaction etc.), mimitism is stronger. Against literally everything else, Fat2 is stronger.
     
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  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Thanks for clarifying, presumably the poster that you claimed to be making empirically incorrect statements was also looking at a Fireteam and therefore wasn’t making an empirically incorrect statement...
     
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  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Yeah, I get sorry. I rushed too quickly at a conclusion without being diligent in my number crunching. I’ll see to it that I avoid repeating that further in this thread.
     
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