I just despise the rule. It's a big part of why I'm not going to play Shas; I'd feel scrubby relying on that with Sheskiin. Gameplay wise, I think Full Auto L2, Fatality Level 2, and Total Immunity all need a look, both for play experience and balance.
Do you care to elaborate on that? I literally don't care about anything on Tariq or Sheeskin, other than the fact that they have a busted ability. Why would we complain about the same thing if that said thing got reworked? I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me.
Because if Tarik/Sheskin totally destroy your army, the problem is not Fat2. It's your deployment. I'm the only one who ever lost his new Sheskin? Am i the only one who didn't roll a crit for a full game with her (yes, really)? Am i the only one to have a decent opponent good enough to exploit the weakness of those beasts (because they ARE beasts, but surely not unbeatable)?
They would still be beasts if the rule changed. The games would just start to be more fun. I'm not even sure Fat L2 is statisticaly as bad as people think. I did the math myself 42% crit chance is about correct but by how much does that actually increase the chances of a unit dying by being shot by Burst 5 Tarik? Most units would die in that situation anyway. My problem with it is that it is a completely random thing. I play Haqq myself and there is no tactic in using Fat L2. I do not think a rule like that is good fit for a complex and tactical game like Infinity.
Please don't degenerate this thread into strawman arguments. Litterally none is making that claim. The claim is that Fat2 is a braindead mechanic that ignores core mechanics and concepts of tactics, to the point where it carries lesser players because it no longer punishes them for making bad mistakes. The main argument have already been summarized perfectly:
For what it’s worth, four other players in the Satellite used Sheskiin (and mostly in a Fireteam rather than solo like the winner). They came 11th, 28th, 31st and 32nd out of 38. I appear to be the only Combined/Shas player that didn’t take Sheskiin, and came 12th.
Whne I played a mirror-match (my 5-man sheskiin vs a 3-man sheskiin) my opponent encouraged me to go 'crit fishing' against a noc ML, coz of FAT2 and his experience with it. 2 orders and 10 shots later, not a single crit, and sheskiin who at that point was at 4 wounds!) died. I guess the point is that yeah, on paper a 42% crit chance is great compared to a 21% crit chance or whatever people are throwing around as 'evidence' nowadays), but it doesn't always help. I have yet to see the imbalanced side of FAT2, playing with and against her. YMMV (and I guess I have to obviously point out that I am not refuting other people's experience, but only vocalizing my own).
The biggest thing I dislike with FatL2 is that you're paying something you can't count on it. Not in the same way as MetChem or booty where you know you'll have something. Here, except the FatL1 which is damn effective, it is randomnlessly effective to the point you would be better playing with your trooper as if it wouldn't have the level 2. You can overkill anything during a whole turn, having trouble to make your classified at the same time, and get shot because this time, crits didn't kick in. FA 2, while being a bit dumb, isn't frustrating for everyone like FatL2 is.
An Avatar can also lose 4 STR to a Noctifier in 2 orders. What's the point in anecdotal evidence like that? The Avatar costs over 3 times as much as Sheskin. So @WarHound and @tox you'd be fine with Sheskin and Tarik costing around 120 points, if I have understood your arguments correct? Performance has not changed at all and they'd still be just as good on the table.
You serious ? It's like saying that ODD is bad because it might not come into picture due to your opponents dices deciding to roll only 20 (on everythging but ARM rolls). <and yes did happened to me that my opponent won only 2 F2F rolls against me which brought any impact on game table during whole match>
Well, if some models had 90% crit chance, people could also claim it's not OP, because his model in ARO with 5% crit chance still killed them...so...true story, that 90% crit chance model in our game didn't crit and I killed him in ARO...ergo, it's not a problem, GIT GUD! It's not your list, it's you!
I lost an Avatar against a single hit of D-Charge. In my turn. We should bring to 120 points every model with those so fu**ing dangerous and clearly overpowered things, right?
Chill out, mate. In your past replies you often lose the temper; In that way you are not making arguments, rather picking up fight. People who gives negative opinions are not equal to natural born haters. People debating here all likes the game just like you.
There is no point in it, hence it being anecdotal (it merely sets the scene, and isn't indicative of anything, EXACTLY like i explained in the post). your aggression to Tox regarding 'your strawman' is meant to be ironic right, coz it was YOUR strawman argument about raising costs to 120pts, not his. And while i'm going to ignore your asinine comment about points increase (because if you're honestly comparing an Avatar costing to Sheskiin costing and saying there's no performance change then.. wow.), the issue people are taking umbrage with is what? That she has twice the crit chance of other units? Tarik has the same 'OP' ability, as does another Khawarij? Is it the combination of high BS and Fat2 (despite the FACT that the FAT2 butthurt and high BS have no connection WHATSOEVER)? Is it the high burst in a link? Is it the way people aren't trying to take actual, real-world, games into account on the mathhammering, and are just angry over the stacking crit chance from a high burst attack? Sheskin has high BS, high Burst and Fat2. She doesn't have high durability, and doesn't have camo. My stand is that I refute the Fat2 whining, and have yet to see practical evidence of her OP nature. *cue people telling me to 'git gud' and 'play more', and insulting my meta, coz that seems how people like @Mahtamori get their kicks round here*
Correction, your insular bubble haven't observed anything, or you've purposely denied it. This suggests to me that, you haven't read this thread then. Mathhammer doesn't have much to do with it. You can do tons of examples where units have WAAAY higher chance to kill something than a Fat2 user, the problem is that you usually have to work for it, reveal a HD and surprise attack or get close with a shotgun, or burn tons of orders to get to CC or what ever. Fat2 is just point and click, no tactics or positioning involved what so ever AND circumvents THE MOST expensive stat in the game (ignoring extra wound) which is ARM. You're just acting childish at this point. I fully respect your opinion on not having an issue on Fat2 but please don't resort to this level of argumentation, as I don't want this thread closed
You're calling me childish, yet have no feedback on Mahtamori's accusing people of strawman when they're using HIS arguments? Plus your 'correction' design exclusively to belittle my stand on the matter, with no constructive addition? That's as close to an ad hominem attack as you can achieve without calling the mods down on yourself... Come on man, you were at the event this weekend and saw how many Shas players were there using Sheskiin. The point i made (that I am saying again for, like, the third time, is that I have not personally witnessed the problem with Fat2 people are mentioning. But it seems that having an opinion nowadays it just begging to get shouted down, so for the 2nd time within a week i'll bow out of this thread too, as all that's happening on the forums nowadays is PvP.
It can happen, but just talking about crits to not overcomplicate the math. With 5 dices you have 40.95% of getting at least 1 crit in one attack roll, that means that the probability of not getting at least 1 critical in 2 rolls is 34.87% (around 1 of each 3 times). If you attack a piece heavily stacked against you 40.95% is a huge base percentaje, and 2 of each 3 times if you make 2 rolls versus him, you will crit that model at least 1 time. You can always fail but the odds are heavily in the favor of the FAT2 model.
