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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Nuada Airgetlam I mean it might make sense if they see themselves as a model company, not a game company.
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Unlike another company we know well that tried to use this excuse before it became it's New And Better Incarnation (and without sarcasm, it is way better than before), CB absolutely need the ruleset to sell the miniatures. They are not collectible, they are otherwise useless at this unique scale and without the powerhouse of a setting like 40k behind them.

    The selling point of the game are its unique rules and its unique take on a skirmish and only then the quality & insane detail of the minis, along with the fact they're all metal. You can play Infinity w/o the CB minis, but the minis are no use to anybody should Infinity suddenly cease to be supported.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Nuada Airgetlam Well the opinion within the company might be different idk.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Really depends on what you are shooting at. As Tarik, if you have B and BS advantage (by BS I mean after applying mods for range and other stuff) over your target, then adding Fat2 on top of that does roughly the same as gaining extra +2 BS. I guess it's not really more powerful than Mimetism, although that's probably also situational.

    Them again, cost of Mimetism varies between 1 and 3 (?) points, so there's that.

    Fat2 is strongest when you are at heavy disadvantage, can change odds as much as Sogarat's Full Auto 2 does (and IIRC it does more for him than for Kriza because generally B 2 -> 3 provides better impact than B 4 -> 5). And Full Auto 2 is roughly 5 man link bonus.
    Even though it's still not always wise to shoot under these odds, Fat2 and survivability of Tarik and Sheskin makes such proposition noticeably less stupid.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I've been learn-told that Mimetism cost depends on BS value (which is why it's criminally cheap on CA TR HMGs). Not to give outright the formula, but let's just say it's very simple and linear and that @Section9 underestimated what Mimetism on Tarik would cost by a very small margin.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Tarik is BS13, just like Moblots, and we know Mimetism on Moblots is 2pts, it's right there in the profile options.

    I assume there may be a half-point of variation that gets rounded to the nearest whole point, which is why I don't think Mimetism on Tarik would be more than 3 points.

    Anyway, that's why I said:
    Emphasis mine.

    Not sure what it'd be for that evil BS15 Sheskiin. I'd probably guess 5pts at a base.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Exciting. It's not as simple as I was told. Druze pays 3 and a Chain-Colt for it (HMG and Multi Sniper should be the same with no gear difference) so it's not unreasonable to assume Tarik would pay 3 or 4 and that Mowang does the same.
     
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  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I hadn't noticed that... Wonder if there's an additional cost for linkability or something?
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I've really enjoyed your posts in this thread and wanted to give my thoughts.

    I'd say you have no idea how CB are making this whole process work because they are not making it work imo. They've been releasing mini's and rules but it's been a train wreck for quite some time. They appear to be flying by the seat of their pants. Relying on faithful customers who eat this stuff up. Regardless of what's put in front of them. It's extremely tough for some people to admit the gravity of its flaws when they've invested heavily in money and time already. This forum is filled with excuses.

    CB seems to be content with the life they're living off of this product. Contentment doesn't spur improvement in my experience.

    You're correct that CB are not meeting the standards I expect from a game company. Which is why I haven't played a game or purchased a mini since the Onyx line. I jumped into this beautiful game headfirst then quickly ran away screaming. The game is unplayable for someone like me who actually cares about the standards you've referred to. I know I can handle a complex rule set. But this isn't complex, it's incomprehensible.

    I've got money in my wallet and minis I want to buy from CB. They're losing out on that money until I see some drastic improvement in Infinity's rule set. I tell gamers in my area to avoid this product from personal experience.

    The only thing CB has going for it atm is their beautiful minis and style of game play. Which is why I keep an eye on things here. But I doubt this will always be the case. I'm not saying CB MUST change the way they run their business. They're free to do as they please. I'm saying I won't touch this game with a ten foot pole until they do. The ball is in their court.
     
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  10. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    "and yet it moves" ...

    Might be incomprehensible to you. But plenty of people find it clear enough to play games and run competitive events.

    There are some bugs, I don't deny it. But I wouldn't call incomprehensible.

    What game does fit your taste btw ?
     
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  11. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion crits are only fun when everyone has the same rules for them. I don't know if fatality Is powerful or not. But in my opinion the rule is not fun or enjoyable (linked or not). It feels cheap and brakes one of the pilars of the game.

    What if, fatality lvl2 adds 1 to dice results when shooting? But only if you don't fail the shot because of it.

    For example, with 3 dices looking for 13s the enemy gets a 12 and you get a 18, 12, 13.
    The 18 is a miss the 12 gets upgraded to 13 and the 13 stays as 13 because 14 is a miss.

    IDK it's just an idea.
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it does move. It moves in the same way I can move a cart with square wheels across the country and reach the same destination as another cart with round wheels. Just because they reach the same destination, doesn't mean they both work well.

    Players have been making Infinity work by twisting rules, interpreting rulings/FAQs, and relying on TO's to make the right calls. With outcomes that differ region to region. This may appease some people, but not everyone. Feel free to defend Infinity by calling it 'clear enough' with 'some bugs' if you want, but some people (me included) have higher standards.

    This may not be the most popular play style, but I play to win. I have fun playing the best I can and trying to improve each and every game. To do this, I find it important to know a games boundaries inside and out. I need to know what limits I can push and how far I can push them. Infinity does not allow for this. Here, the rules can break when pushed. The percentage of the rules which break may be small, but I'd bet the total number of rules that break are not.

    I simply want to add weight to @Nuada Airgetlam points. 'Incomprehensible' is an exaggeration, sure, but it's one I'm comfortable making. Because the result is the same, I refuse to play Infinity in its current state. Whether that's because I can't understand the rules, or they're simply that bad, it makes no difference. Just like I'm not moving that cart with square wheels across the country. Both work, yet both don't work. I 'expect' more, from my games and my carts :P

    To answer your question, I play a heavily modified version of Necromunda which includes Landmates (A la Appleseed) using Heavy Gear minis. It's basically Infinity before it actually existed.

    If you believe nothing else I say, believe this... I want to play Infinity, but I can't. The world, its ideas, the mini's, and concepts, are all top notch. The rules on the other hand, to put it politely, are not.

    Edit, *I'd like to make this distinction, The intent behind the rules is good, it's the execution of the written rule that is the problem.*
     
    #372 Ginrei, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Thanks :3

    If I were pushed to specify my impression of the company, I would read them as a "we-made-this-in-our-garage", "by buddies for buddies" kind of a company that has since outgrown its own origins and basic structure. The game has conquered Spain and later the world and also has outgrown its core ideas. Thus they've implemented N2, a more detailed and "realistic" ruleset. When that has proven to have bogged down with "rulesanity", N3 came about and Human Sphere after, taking the ruleset more towards genre-equivalency, anime/action movie style and "style over substance".

    With the most recent iteration of changes, CB seems to have realized that what they have is a very good product as a pure idea (skirmish, staggered initiative, constant player interaction/attention, etc.), coupled with a single area in which their competency has completely outgrown the rest of the company, as well as most if not all competition in the world (miniature design and production).

    But they've also realized that the system has certain design lumps which might prove to be cancerous growth. Some they've clearly identified, either thanks to community feedback or internal testing / redesign (e.g. latest Total Immunity phrasing changes, cleaning up the design structure of "nested interactions", very nicely done!). Some still remain unidentified and/or unaddressed (Fat2, the general idea of Rambo models / links using up 10+ orders, divergence between gameplay vs 10 and 30+ models, etc.).

    They do not seem to have a dedicated lump-identifying QA team, both for text content and for ruleset interactions, which is a huge drawback because this system need an MRI like a fly on the Chernobyl reactor wall. They also seem to be the equivalent of an IT team in a large company making changes and deploying them straight to production because they simply do not have any means for sufficiently intensive (as in, "play a 1000+ full scale games with this rule adjustment, with several variants of all factions and sectorials") gameplay testing. They have to rely on community feedback.

    This in turn has its positives and drawbacks. The positive is, obviously, the stress testing happens. The obvious drawback is - we're paying to do the testing; which would not be that much of a problem, if only another issue didn't rise its head - they do not have a dedicated Community Management team. Nobody who would be dedicated to things like what @ijw is quasi doing here, but also compiling the reports of rule interaction issues from the players, addressing them in public with the full official might of the Studio behind the statement (basically a 24/7 "living FAQ", overriden only by a later Errata / Wiki adjustment, when sufficient testing shows that the previous interpretation is invalid and/or the rule ought to work differently and/or be adjusted).

    Yeah, I've similarly run away from N2. I've always wanted a fully developed low-tech army in Infinity quality and the new CAD desings of USARF and TAK suckered me back. Since I've fed my pokemonitis, I've decided that I could just as well give it a shot.

    I have found that the game is WAY more manageable and FUN at lower tiers (150 pts, Recon rules, 24"x32" mat or however big the "posters are"). 300/6 ITS is a trainwreck for me. 20x20 is a bit better, but still the amount of unique rules I can cram into the list, even though I've never even touched Hacking or Pheromones yet, is astounding.

    This game has a golden core that's covered in an insane overgrowth of edge cases, special rules that have 5+ variants each and exceptions upon exceptions, whole additional interaction systems growing out of the sides... It absolutely needs a designer who can streamline the game down to about 30% of current rules and still retain the depth of tactical choices. It's perfectly doable, but it needs a pro designer and that's the third thing CB are missing.

    Yeah, pretty much. I'm not kidding myself, I want to buy and paint their stuff. I will be playing the game and I will provide my feedback, but the current state is a bit like N1 was pre-alpha, N2 was alpha and N3/HS are some kinda "open beta pre-order" or "early access".

    I dearly hope that the "huge black N new way to play Infinity" in Q3 is a different skirmish "trimmed down" variant of the rules.

    Yeah, the mere fact that as a new player I cannot recall a single game where I didn't have several interpretation / interaction questions that I had to resolve with the help of the opponent / Wiki / people at the neighboring table, that there always was at least one question that tripped even 100% competetive players over and sometimes their answers were "wrong" (that is, an interpretation not supported by majority consensur and/or RAI interpretation by @ijw or @psychoticstorm here), that on the first tournament I played in even ex-Warcors and the TO had issues remembering interactions and they've been playing the game for years; it all shows that there are huge, gaping issues with the unnecessary complexity of the ruleset that is so contrived that it's unplayable "as is".

    Yup, exactly, as above.

    I'd probably say "befuddling, confusing" rather than "completely incomprehensible". Or, rather, "incomprehensible so far as RAI is so utterly obfuscated by RAW that it is effectively so".

    Yeah, absolutely agree. The core is great, the team had a lot of stunning and daring ideas in early development. But now they ought to give their baby boy to the USMC Boot Camp for young adult rulesets, where a Drill Designer will make a real, mean killing machine out of it.
     
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  14. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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  15. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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  16. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Active Member

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    Sigh... I also do not like fatality lvl2 not because it increases the chance to crit to 10% and I don't live crits, but because with the weapon choices and link ability the total chance of a winning armor cancelling roll becomes too high to be supportable. As infinity is a fairly competitive game with most players playing its style most of the time, this can and will cause the mega competitors to start to take lists and minis that give win for the buck and start the ugly GW slide to obscurity for so many forces and units.
    Ginrei- if you don't play why are you on the forums peeing on everything. Your answer for what you do play is... Well no one makes a game you will play so you went and found good enough and modified until you are happy. That pretty much excludes you from an opinion. It's like a chef saying a restaurant sucks and he knows cause he only cooks for himself.
    The game has flaws but what i have found is 90% of the time the flaws are from someone trying to get an unfair and illogical advantage from a rule or situation. Competition is fine and good but if you are trying to win by twisting or finding a loop hole rather than just strategy and fun...well don't play. Winning by rules holes is a waste if everyone's time.
    I read and learn about rules and am constantly amazed at situations that come up. So many the basic ruling is it is just an unfair advantage sought by 1 player over another.
    The game is most likely the best sci fi non mass combat game on the block. It would be nice to have a social media guru and it would be nice for them to blast the forums and squash b.s. debates and get answers but we are where we are. I dread the idea of us moving to simpler and simpler game play for the sake of clarity alone. That path leads to 40k 8th aimed at the Pokemon crowd
     
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  17. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Thank you, o' Gatekeeper of Feedback, for your valued input.

    Who the hell do you think you are, dude? Just a random nerd on the Internet. You have no right to exclude anyone from opinion about a bloody product.

    And OF COURSE a renowned chef will attend places like a Michelin starred restaurant, not Joe Schmoes Greasy BBQ. I wonder why.

    You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    Polished, well-designed and trimmed down is not "dumbed down"!

    Oh, right. Yeah, if you think the move from 7th to 8th was "dumbing the game down" and if you think the main target of 40k ever was not the "pre-teen / teen / young adult" (i.e. "the bloody Pokemon crowd", look at who played the app when it released, genius!), then I'm absolutely convinced you have no idea what you're talking about.
     
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  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Please do not fight among yourselves.
     
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  19. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    What would be a difference between fair and unfair advantage if they both are governed by rules in the same book?

    Other than that, good job redirecting the blame for "loopholes" from those who wrote them at those who play by what people has written instead of ignoring handpicked parts of it because someone deemed them "unfair and illogical", whatever that means.
     
  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I could say a lot in response to this, but instead, i'll do my best to ignore what you've said.

    I just came here to say my piece. I've seen what happens when people defend their opinion or ideas. I have no interest in going down that road. I feel they're either forced to conform or leave because those with any influence here seem stuck in their ways. Their way is to crush unfavorable opinions or ideas so the established boat isn't rocked.

    There are very few people that seem capable of having an impartial or unbiased discussion. I hope you know who you are, because you're a rare breed nowadays. Even when they find each other... it's like trying to have a discussion in the middle of the woods with thousands of mosquitoes trying to bite you. But if you swat one, the authorities swoop in and tell you to leave if you can't play nice.
     
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