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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @melkiach Time will tell, I do expect to face her soon, I do not think mine will be at a core or Haris, at least any time soon, I do not expect to see any important shift on the gameplay facing her, or using her.
     
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  2. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member
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    Yeah I have follow and it is still different.

    Otras veces es posible que al acumular MODs positivos a un Atributo, su valor final supere el 20. En este caso, se considera que el valor final del Atributo será 20. Sin embargo, el jugador sumará al resultado obtenido en el dado aquella cifra que superaba el 20 (por ejemplo, en 23 sumaría 3).

    Dice=dado
    Die roll=tirada

    So if something says result of a Die roll (tirada) I use Mods and the result is whatever number I roll +/- Mods. But if it says Dice result is just the number I see when I roll the dice.

    I know.

    Just saying that the english version make an exception inside the rule while in the spanish version is a clarification. And for me the spanish version makes more sense
     
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  3. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    DUDE. The whole point is that you do not need to assume even a decent situation for Fat2 in a Sheepskin / Tarik full link.

    They don't care about range, modifiers, cover, positioning, nothing at all. Crits all day anyway. THAT is the toxic gameplay, the utter stupidity and lack of interaction.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    That was N2. MODs in N3 alter the Attribute.

    In N3, the only rule that alters the die/result is Attributes over 20.

    I still don't understand. What exception inside the rule?
     
  5. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    i agree. I'd like if someone would go ask in the spanish rule section to see how they apply the rule and how they currently play it. I searched Fatalidad and no one seem to be debating about it. So they all agree it is 15% or they all agree it is 10%, we should ask them.
     
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  6. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    All those shotgun example comparisons are like having a skill "Tactical Impersonation", where you can deploy your 5-man link in the enemy deployment zone.
     
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  7. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member
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    I quote myself here.

    Even if ijw think that I can not even understand my mother language. Whit the spanish ruleset Sheskin using a BS Attack and rolling on 21 after Mods will crit when the dices show the numbers 19, 20 and 1.
     
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  8. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    Lol! Well that kind of settles it!!

    Not a huge deal though right? Just decide what the intention is, I’d have to assume the Spanish version wins, and correct accordingly?

    Still, knowing how they play in Spain is probably relevant. I’m not knowledgable enough to know if Spanish in Spain is different to Spanish outside of Spain here....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Zlavin is a warcor in Spain. (CB gave us a warcor map not long ago https://maphub.net/CorvusBelli/corvus-belli-warcors )

    edit: i'm not saying that as warcor he knows all the rules. our local warcor don't always agree with neighboring warcors on what an rule means, a problem for cross-meta tournaments. but at least he's a local warcor in actual spain, so has a good idea in how his local city will play the rule based on their reading of spanish.
     
    #349 Robock, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  10. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    So knowing all of that it sounds like CB need to decide which version is a intended and FAQ it it and/or adjust the rules text to fit right?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    If I inferred that you don’t understand your mother language, that was not intended, and I apologise.

    We appear to still be talking ‘past’ each other. If Fatality said natural roll or unmodified roll then I would agree with you. But it doesn’t, it’s a reusult on the die.

    Also, you keep mentioning MODs being applied to the die roll - again, that was N2. In N3, MODs apply to the Attribute, they are not applied to the die roll.
     
  12. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member
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    In fact I know nothing about the intention of this rule, just wanted to point out that there is a difference. And I have even asked a few others players how they understand the rule before posting.
     
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  13. zlavin

    zlavin Well-Known Member
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    "...cualquier resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado..." This means by fact natural roll and unmodified.

    I didn't mention anything about MODs, I only copy/pasted the spanish version of the rule for crits above 20 (the N3 rule and the one that is in the wiki rigth now) to point out this "...sumará al resultado obtenido en el dado...". You "add" to the result of the dice, but that doesn't change that you rolled a 1 on the dice and that is what FatalityN2 say.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    I think we'll have to agree that the two languages are different here. Until Gutier or HellLois make a ruling, I will go with the version that makes an already-disliked and over-powerful profile slightly less powerful.

    Sorry, this maybe a misunderstanding by me, I thought these two posts were talking about MODs:
    These posts appear to be talking about applying MODs to the die roll.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    As it was mentioned, yes, in Spanish it says "cualquier resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado por su poseedor al efectuar sus Tiradas de CD" which means "any result of 1 on the dice by its owner when making his BS Tests".
    Point is, in Spanish at least "on the dice" is the natural number in the dice, thus adding the modifiers later... to the result.

    As @ijw says, it needs rewriting, one way or the other so we can all play with the same rules, to avoid people going to tournaments with the rulebook most advantageous to them (like it happened in certain other game).

    This, however, does not detract from my position: Fat2 as it is today, is not fun, engaging, interesting, nor positive for the game or the community.

    Appliying archeological points of view to the rules make quite evident the redaction of any rule can be separated in strata compared to all other rules... Meaning that using a piece of text from HSN2 and the old Paradiso book as an example does not fly here, because CB writes from scratch every time they produce something new rule-wise... so while the meaning can be the same, the wording change because, well, five to seven years might have passed between the redaction of the never used Hostile Environment rules (aside from Biotechvore) and Fatality L2.


    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Hostile_Environment it clearly says "
    N2 Human Sphere & Paradiso Content, to be updated!
    This page contains second edition content from Human Sphere and Campaign Paradiso."


    As for what you say, "En este caso, se considera que el valor final del Atributo será 20. Sin embargo, el jugador sumará al resultado obtenido en el dado aquella cifra que superaba el 20 (por ejemplo, en 23 sumaría 3)."
    As Zlavin says, "resultado obtenido en el dado".

    Fat2 says "resultado de 1 obtenido en el dado"

    Same wording. Same meaning. Same edition of the rules. Sooo... to the Book of Translations to Review with this!
     
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  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    Yes. I missed updating that page on the wiki, which I spotted when replying to this thread.

    Which is why the quotes were from the Daedalus' Fall rules PDF.
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Please, for the love of all that is holy, @Interruptor , make this happen!!!!

    It needs to be under a lot more than 'consideration', but this is a step in the right direction.


    Very much so.

    You should not have a 35% chance of winning the FtF and a ~65% chance of taking no damage while in +3 range of a TO HMG!


    Would actually fit the flavortext of the rule, then.

    It's a little hard to precisely aim a full-auto firearm for maximum lethality. You're normally wanting hits anywhere, not trying to sneak a round into the gap of the armor.


    Not paying for the rule is probably the worst. IIRC, the math shows it to be worth more than Mimetism, so Tarik/Khawarij are at least 2 points too cheap.


    MODs add to the die roll when the Attribute is over 20, which is what I was reading this conversation to be about.
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor
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    And that's exactly what I was complaining about. This is not the correct terminology. MODs are applied to Attributes, and only to Attributes.

    "with the peculiarity that the player adds to his result on the die the amount by which the Attribute exceeded 20"

    It's not a MOD, it's altering the result of the roll.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    MODs are applied to burst sometimes in the rules, even though they also say that MODs only apply to attributes.

    But having an attribute above 20 is not a MOD; otherwise your cc would be capped at 20 vs. Electric Pulse and we know that's not true.
     
  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    As a professional translator and editor, it's an industry standard we should be expecting, not hoping for.

    I literally (LITERALLY) have no idea how CB are making this whole process work if they do not cross-coordinate RAI, RAW and both of the (Spanish vs English) major linguistic editions, along with both Wikipedias, which then are the basis for translation into other languages.

    It's a bloody minefield and what we're complaining about here are freaking shrapnel, entrails and blood flying in our faces as we're trying to have a fun game. About 90% of the rules-related issues we're having are due to lack of proper QA, not badly designed interactions (like Fat2 here is and it still also manages to have an editing ESP vs ENG issue with the "natural die result" vs "roll / test result" controversy).