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Fatality 2 with B5...

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Zewrath, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Given the probabilities on it I've seen I'm not of the sky is falling persuasion (it's not my favourite rule either) on FAT2 but I think this is a good point. It should at least be costed fairly for its worth, like most other things in the game.

    Now waiting for FAT2 twin SMGs on a frenzy linked NWI shock immune FD2, mimetism posthuman for 21pts ;)
     
    #301 Hachiman Taro, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Well played. I threw up in my mouth a little with that bit at the end there.
     
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  3. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    Actually, yes. A Yan Huo or Szalamander is already going to ruin whatever it shoots in the active turn, and already have a high burst chance. Stop looking of what the crit per burst chance is, and look at the percent of improvement over the normal odds of winning.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It would take too long to formulate a full answer, time I don't have atm, but we have units paying 10+ points for a <5% difference. FAT2 offers over 10% difference for no cost at all.

    Edit: due to ftf percentages aren't fixed. A Spitfire upgrade is a 6 pts cost for a roughly 15% upgrade over a Combi. For Khawarij, this is closer to 25% upgrade. (Measured under optimal conditions for the attacker versus a TR HMG)
    Terms and conditions blablabla (range and opponent etc etc) but as we have noted the more conditions and limitations the better crit becomes.
     
    #304 Mahtamori, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  5. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Thats adding mimetism, fat2 and shock immunity to the mk2. So it should be around 15 points, not 21.
     
    #305 Wyrmnax, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    While I wholeheartedly agree with the latter statement, Fat2 will actually be the most powerful on high B units that have to shoot on low resulting BS. HRMC wielders don't have any mod-cancelling abilities like MSV, meaning that adding Fat2 to, say, Yan Huo shooting at simple linked BS12 mimetic will change the odds rather considerably:

    To wound: 39,3% -> 52,6%
    To be wounded: 27,6 -> 20,8%

    To put it into perspective: that's roughly how addition of Full Auto L2 changed Feuerbach Sogarat against average Core-linked mook, which in turn is roughly an equivalent of giving him 5-man link bonuses via rule.

    Against something like linked line trooper ARO Fat2 is very close to doing the same as +2 BS.

    I'm not sure if this is something to disregard, although HRMC models aren't likely to die on a single failed shootout (2-3 W, 5-8 ARM), meaning you would probably take current odds anyway. But I'm sure you would consider alternatives if that buffer wasn't there.

    Then again, if you want to discuss point prices of Fat2, it is IMO very much in line with discussion on how BS is a lot costlier than rules providing equivalent mods (~3 BS) under current point formula.

    I believe the inertia of Fat2 when it comes to shooting circumstances (so, mods) is a much bigger problem than its point cost. It can easily boost Fat2 from less than Mimetism levels of performance to being stronger than Core link bonuses (correct me if I'm wrong) when shooting at linked ODD folks or something along these lines.

    And ofc its disregard for save stats (ARM/BTS) is sad, but not something we aren't used to by now.
     
    #306 Barrogh, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  7. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    Give it to Uxia and call it a day IMO.
     
  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Or Aida. Or Krakot. Hell, I'd love it on a 2xSMG Scots Guard :3
     
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    So, was there a follow up to this?
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that anything with FAT2 can hit reliably on -9s.

    OK, so the only place they can draw LOF to your active-turn Mimetic killer is at -3 range and in cover? No problem. 41% chance of crit.


    You called?



    Sorry, IJW, but I'm going with the native Spanish speaker on this one.


    If you're rolling 5x face-to-face BS attacks a turn, you should see about 1 crit per Player Turn (and 6 per game). Assuming 10x FtF BS attacks per turn (order spam), you should see 2 crits per Player Turn turn (and 12 crits per game).

    4-5 Crits per player per game is about normal! Some of them might be shooting and some of them might be Dodge or hacking, but you should still see 4-5 crits per player per game.



    Exactly.



    If someone gets their spitfire to it's +3 range and finds an angle that removes my cover, that's me being outplayed. Well done, I'll buy the first round of adult beverages.

    But with FAT2, the problem is that you don't need to get to your +3 range and remove my cover. If the only shot you can get on my active turn killer is at -9, you're still at a ~41% chance to crit.



    That's not bad. Forces the BS attack to a normal roll, and you're going to eat a normal roll back in exchange. Also convenient that it follows an existing mechanic.


    Exactly.



    Name them.

    The only one I know of is Atalanta, and she's usually shooting on 17s because target is in cover.



    ?

    Beg pardon?

    Tarik/Khawarij are extremely forgiving to play stupid, and don't really reward pushing for the max mod stacking.


    Excessively cheap.

    Plus, they get the same Suppression Fire range bands as a combi.


    Except that they're the perfect Suppression Fire weapon.


    He chooses poor example targets for demonstrating the issue.

    Pick something that puts the shooter at -6 to -9. Say, a Swiss Guard at -3 range that you managed to catch out of cover by Super-jumping. Hrm, that's roughly even for the Swiss HMG to win, interesting.

    Face to Face Roll
    Tarik Mansuri - Spitfire vs. Swiss Guard - HMG (both out of cover)
    Active Player
    35.03% Tarik Mansuri inflicts 1 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (1 W)
    5.96% Tarik Mansuri inflicts 2 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Unconscious)
    0.49% Tarik Mansuri inflicts 3 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Dead)

    Failures
    30.11% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    34.86% Swiss Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Tarik Mansuri (1 W)

    Note that this is a 65% chance of Tarik taking no damage [ edit: while in +3 range for an HMG! ]. Most folks I know would take those odds.



    I'm more concerned about high vis mod targets, those are a lot more common due to the high cost of ARM.
     
    #310 Section9, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Wauw... @Section9 T2 Crits the entire thread! :joy:
     
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  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Presumably: any BS15+ shotgun (or BS12 shotgun in a core link).
     
  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's why included the Avatar in my analysis.
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You mean the MK5?

    Although it would be fun for the MK2 AHD, trading the BSG for 2 SMGs, Bioimmunity and FAT2 makes him cost like 2 points more. Probably gonna knock a point off that because Posthumans get a % based rebate.... so +1 point over the BSG MK2.
    22 for a much better version of the best TO Infiltrator in the game, hillarious.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Again, I usually assume targets in cover.
     
  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Sensible enough as a baseline. Makes sense of why you wouldn't have worked out what PsyStorm was talking about.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is what makes high mobility fighters so strong in the active turn; they can get to places where cover is denied much easier, but those are almost exclusively BS 14 or lower and not linkable so will be hitting on 20 at best using a shotgun weapon, so basically any AD trooper, the Su-Jian, the Lunkhod (but this one can ignore Cover regardless thanks to Assisted Fire) and Tarik. Namurr is highly mobile and has a shotgun, but will be slowed down by the non-Climb+ Ghulam Core while a Samaritan lacks a shotgun range band. Otherwise you have these ones;
    1. Lunah can actually hit on BS 21 when shooting Marksmanship X regardless of cover
    2. Grunt Sniper can actually hit on BS 23 when linked and shooting Marksmanship X regardless of cover (but it's nearly always better not to)
    3. Pheasant can actually hit on BS 24 when linked and shooting Marksmanship X regardless of cover (but it's nearly always better not to - and it's an extremely expensive Fireteam at 120+)

    So basically, in order to get that high you either need to catch your opponent grossly out of position, or you need to use a unit that needs to be very stationary and engage at very high range, or you need Fatality 2 at which point position no longer matters in this regard.

    There is also a gross number of units that get over 20 if the target is Targeted, but that nearly always means you first need to risk a different unit when taking a worse shot so putting enemies in Targeted is rare.
     
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  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    And @Section9
    Vedic:
    Deva AHD (with Lightning) BS12+BSG => 21 in full Dakini/Deva link
    Yadu AHD (with Stop!) BS13+BSG => 22 in full Yadu Link

    Morat:
    Rodok (several profiles) BS 12 + BSG => 21 in full link (plus mimetic)
    Yaogat (1 profile) BS12+BSG => 21 full link
    Raktorak: same as Yaogat
    Suryat (several profiles) BS 13 + shotguns (Vulkan, boarding, light...) => 22 in full link

    Shasvastii:
    Only Victor Messher can reach 21 (BS12 + BSG + full Nox Link). He can be with Sheskiin in that same Fireteam...

    Haqquislam:
    About 12 units or so have BS 12 and Light Shotgun (because Rifle + LSG) and several of those have the BSG option, and those 12 have access to Core.

    Let's change counting: BS 13, shotgun of any tipe and Core:
    PanO: Bolts, Father-Knights (BS 14!!!), Orcs (BS 14!!!) That is, 2 troops can reach BS22
    YJ: Haidao, Wu Ming, Zu Yong, Shang Ji. Only BS 14 is the Hsien, limited to Haris.
    Ariadna: Moblots, Minutemen, Veteran Kazak, Grey Rifles.
    Haqquislam: Khawarij, Sekban, Janissaries, Asawira
    Nomads: Grenzer, Reverend healer, Wildcats, Hollow Men, Mobil Brigada, Riot Grrls!
    CA: Suryat
    Aleph: Yadu

    NA2:
    Foreign Company has Orcs & Bolts
    JSA: Tanko
    Druze: Arslan
    Ikari: Wu Ming
    Starco: Brigadas, Riots
    Dashat: Zuyong
    Spiral: none

    So:
    • All factions but Tohaa and Spiral Corps can deploy at least one guy, in a Fireteam Core, that reaches BS21 with a shotgun.
    • Only Shasvastii can deploy one troop able to reach BS21 with a weapon *different* than a shotgun
      • That same core can carry a BSG at BS21. In case the 2 wounds of Sheskiin (who can "eat" enemies to reach up to 4) are not enough.
    • PanO and Foreign Company are the only factions able to reach BS22 with a shotgun.
    Mind you, Tarik & Sheskin keep a 10% crit at all times (well, Tarik is down to 5% if he suffers a -12, Sheskin does not), regardless of target number. Meaning... well, 41% crit at all times if linked (and Sheskin only needs 2 other flunkies).
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @xagroth all of those you list requires you to flank your opponent at short range, which is precisely what makes them pointless to bring up. At that point we're no longer discussing premises which makes Fatality so powerful, which is the ability to achieve such potential without having to outflank your opponent and using weapons that do not need a +6 range band.

    That's why I brought up that some units are good at flanking, but that those units will not be able to achieve such high ballistics skills. The other three units are the only ones I know of that can achieve BS of 21+ while not outflanking your opponent. All at Burst 1.
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Sheskin can do it up to half a table (60cm / 24'), but all the others, I agree.
     
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