Fatality 2 with B5...

Shock vulnerability, Hacking vulnerability. Try getting those ORCs to BS21+ vs a Moira on Suppression Fire.

You claim not to be building strawmen and then you wheel out a 2 ORC BSG+3 Fusi link. WTF?

Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
WILDCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
WILDCAT (Number 2) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
WILDCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
WILDCAT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
WILDCAT Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades, Deployable Repeater / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)

2 SWC | 109 Points

Open in Infinity Army

This also can practically get to BS21+. Nobody complains about it because it requires investment, smart gameplay and realistically isn't practical in most circumstances.

It's the same reason that Teucer isn't decried as OP: MMLX has practical limitations on its effectiveness that means that you can mitigate it on the table. Similarly, if FAT2 was a long skill I don't think people would have nearly as many issues with it. The presence of practical limitations makes the skill reasonable.

As it stands, however, (as @Triumph has pointed out) the opposite is true: there are no practical limitations on the use of FAT2, it simply turns the user into a solid FTF option almost irrespective of the target. This is counter to the design we see with MSV / Vis Mods / White Noise where there options for counterplay.

 

Do current instawound/instakill mechanic hurts 1W models same as multiple wound models ? Of course not. It affects everyone differently. So nothing changes in this regard with my proposed rework of crit mechanic.
What is better about my version, is that it will give that Jotum or anyone else a chance for armor roll, instead of instakill. Odds will not be in your favor, but I think everyone on the receiving end would like to have at least a chance, even a slim one, to save that wound. I think that is vastly preferable to just losing your 1W 35 point model to a lucky crit from a 6 point warband.

And I really like you used Fusilier and Jotum example, most people who like current crit mechanic like it because 10 point Fusilier can would and kill 103 point Jotum which it couldn't if this mechanic didn't exist ( and they use this exact example ). So, I give people what they want. Your fusilier gets +3 DAM on his crit, he also continues to negate all of Jotum's success rolls like it currently does I wouldn't change that part of the rule, but Jotum gets to roll a dice and save it. You paid that nasty ass robot 103 points, over 1/3 of your army allowance. Of course he should get the chance to save it. As should everyone else.
Not to mention, this is perfectly in line with CB new strategy. I will remind you what they wrote, just few short weeks ago on Symbiomate changes : This piece of equipment has been redesigned to be more in line with how the rules work in N3, which always allows a player to have a roll associated with an action - making sure that there is a risk associated with the reward of a successful roll. SymbioMates are now a piece of Obligatory Equipment with only one use, and that gives ARM 9, BTS 9, and Total Immunity. ( emphasis mine )
Really, CB themselves gave me reason to push for crit mechanic change. They themselves said this is how rules in N3 should work. I am showing them there is community support for that change.
And message for you personally, if you disagree, at least bother to write why. I find comments like those you made insulting. I actually invest time to explain myself properly and am open to discussion, but dropping in with one liners that should somehow discredit me or what I wrote is just rude.

 

Terrain dependant, of course, you can be easily that close and been that close you can ignore cover simply by positioning.

Been theoretical, you can add any number of variants to increase or decrease the efficiency of the examples and provide ideal conditions.

Fatality gives the same bonus a BS 21 gives at normal conditions a bit more inferior since you do not get the "I hit with whatever I roll" BS and flat out disregard some of the possible numbers the enemy can roll, on the other hand its a bit easier to achieve, as I pointed out and has been pointed out by others in this thread if the combo needs support to happen its not "brain-dead", moreover even with Tariq's ease of access form most players, the tournament data do not much the doom predictions that were announced when Fatality l2 was introduced and this must indicate something.

 

Yes. But getting to within 8" with the fireteam intact and to an angle where your opponent can't get cover and against an opponent who doesn't have Mimetism is a bit of a hoop to jump through.

By that time you've already defeated your opponent and the comparison isn't interesting anymore, and using your logic the Shotgun category should be the most expensive guns in the game because of the +6 because we're already ignoring range, terrain, order expenditure and position as our metrics.

(As a small side note, thanks to Super Jump and lack of Hackable characteristic, Tarik is more likely to get to a position where he can legitimately get to BS22 using the AP Rifle + LSG profile (that I haven't seen anyone ever mention) than an Orc ever would)

 

@LaughinGod I explained you in detail why the critical mechanics are in the game, your solution is simply a bad one, please address the two functions critical have in the game, chance of low stat models beating high stat models and been an actual threat to high resilience models by low level models.

A Jotumn in cover would laugh at a +3 damage to a combi makes an auto pass to a 4+ pass.

@Mahtamori and he would potentially be shot down by most of the enemy force? I pointed out higher modifiers existed before Fatality L2 and first turn paintrains is nothing new, have done it with bolts, have done it with Joan, Tariq is a great model and fatality gives him a boost in criticals, but as I pointed out several times already his basic form who had the same doomsday predictions when it was introduced, did not provide the data to support the predictions, why would this one? especially at high BS the fact that he has Fatality is irrelevant.

 

Well if the data indicate what you say then actions will be taken, so far the world is not set on fire with Tariq lists this may change, this may not change, we will see.

We probably do not play the same game or be on the same level to be honest, maybe you can reliably pie slice always, maybe the opponents of that player were not good enouph to deny the possibility to pie slice, if it does turn out to become a Spekulo/ Avatar situation (reference for the really old players) action will be taken.

 

I don't know what game do you play often but in my (now few years) of playing mostly MO/NCA (hello HI big links shotguns etc.) I only remember 2 times being able to shoot on 20+.

Frikking simple thing like a cover suddenly drops you to "mere" 18s.

So take this into consideration that FAT2 units STIKE (almost) LIKE BS21 ALL THE FRIKKING TIME, independant of cover/TO/etc.

 

Will we have to wait more than Teutons fix, or just that long as Teutons were incorrectly having CORE link team on them ?

Or how long exactly CB needed to fix Xenotech ? 2 Weeks ? 3 Weeks ? (consider the simplicity of that problem)

 

You didn't really explain much, you contradicted yourself in several of your posts here. People are picking you apart left and right on this thread.
Low stat models cost low points and should not be able to beat models that cost 10 times more 5% of the time. So yes, Jotum should reliably shrug off damage from Combi rifles.I PAID FOR HIM TO DO SO! ( which is kinda funny, since FAT2 is given out for free ).
I mean, what is this sentence : your solution is simply a bad one ? I could say you are obviously bad at game design since you think current crit mechanic is perfectly fine. But it wouldn't mean anything, would it ? You need to explain why you disagree with someone's point(s). Address my post, or don't quote or mention me at all please. After you humor me I will humor you.

And I will continue to quote CB on this, just because it seems you disagree with company that you work for ( hopefully not playtest ) :
"This piece of equipment has been redesigned to be more in line with how the rules work in N3, which always allows a player to have a roll associated with an action - making sure that there is a risk associated with the reward of a successful roll.SymbioMates are now a piece of Obligatory Equipment with only one use, and that gives ARM 9, BTS 9, and Total Immunity. " ( emphasis mine )

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but how I read this is that you are insinuating that players who disagree on power level of units or rules with you are just below your level in IQ or game mastery ( even that their entire gaming community is under your level ) and you are using this to dismiss their points.
This is really rude, doubly so when coming from someone with moderator tag.
Again, correct me if I am wrong, but your post could easily be perceived like this by some people.

 

Nah I am an average tactical player, I can easily accept somebody been a higher level than me playing the game and I can see top players seeing things in a way most of the player base do not see, or do not care about, that again is not a dismissal, but top tier players seek to find any and every advantage, most do not and from a balance standpoint, one has to see if the advantage should be there or not.

 

Just to be fair to both sides - nah, Zewrath used this as an example that psychoticstorm doesn't probably play with top tier competetive opponents (which is very likely the case). I have Polish masters playing in our Warsaw FLGS, so I fully agree there - they only person that takes multiples of ARO is me, because I suck :D

Zewrath literally just told you, that yes, the world is burning, named two large tournament ladders that have been uprooted by Haqq Fat2 Tarik and Khawarij insanity, but here you are, still claiming...

 

Your post is full of logical flaws doesn't make any sense and ignores everything people are telling you.

Business as usual.

 

But they just did find it and even they think it's an unfair one!

Gasp.

 

Can anyone please tell me - you yourself maybe? - does @psychoticstorm participate in designing the rules or does his involvement extend only to English Wiki maintenance and talking to CB?

Because if that's all you do, I'm not sure why we're treating you as anything more than a regular user in regard to the rules design. And if you are an Infinity rules designer, I'm aghast that you cannot grasp the argumentation presented here and the overarching implication of the Fat2 influence on the game ecosystem.

 

Not really. You modify only how one part of the rule works.

Go play a few games now, order spam is king. So instead of order spam, high ARM units we paid arm and leg for will actually see play and be more useful ? Get out of there, who the hell would want that ? Order spam forever.

Yeah, I really don't believe that. First, as Bostria said Infinity is played 1 day a week. Second, so many things coming out at this tempo, half of them half baked, no chance in hell they devoted much time to testing any of these ideas floating around. No chance. Zero. And third, I actually don't believe you anything you say about CB anymore, since you said there are no rules that cost 0 points and that CB is not manually adjusting price points. Sure, this was on the old forum, but even then this wasn't true. Doesn't matter if you lie or just don't know what you are talking about. End result is the same. You are not to be trusted on these things. Period.

it appears people dislike uncertainty in the system. Crit mechanic is not enjoyable. Tolerable at best. FAT2 not even that. You want risk to expensive models ? Be smart, use weapons intended for countering them. Don't rely on luck to beat them. That makes you stupid player.
EDIT: while I was writing you yourself countered this point in a later post

So if you are good, it won't matter if you can crit 5% of time, this is not what are you counting on. Only noobs need crit and FAT2 specifically, which is what many people here are arguing.
EDIT2: and I still want people to crit 5% of the time, just want to also make that crit not be instawound. So you still keep that defensive aspect of the rule.

Please give me more so I can pick you apart. I have entire night free.

 

@LaughinGod I am sorry if now I do sound dismissive, but you have not produced a convincing argument, for me, maybe indeed we see the game system differently, in any case I do not mind you "picking apart" arguments, even if I disagree on your perspective, I do read perspectives I disagree with, it is important to read them.

I have to point out that I do have played Infinity the way you describe it or similar enouph and it was not an enjoyable experience, as you probably do know, there are several closed playtest groups that test new rules or rules adaptions and submit reports, it is not just 3-5 people on CB headquarters playing once a week...

Considering your Edit2 I am open to your suggestions if they are not "roll for armour as normal" or "add an insignificant amount of extra damage to the weapon", because these have been tried before.

 

Can you please clarify - are you a rules designer in CB? Do you have any say on whether rules are applied to the final release or not, in which form that happens, etc.?

 

@psychoticstorm try them some more then. Group that tested SMG change in HSN3 should be disbanded. I will not go further into how much and how good CB does testing, show me some stats, quotes, any conclusions from those tests if you want to use this as an argument. Otherwise this argument is invalid.
It doesn't have to be enjoyable to you. It needs to be enjoyable to wider audience. And it appears they don't enjoy crit mechanic, and really don't enjoy FAT2. This would lead to conclusion that what you want is really different from what community wants, so it's questionable how much weight your conclusions should carry when testing this.
If potential for you to need to pass armor against DAM 19 is insignificant then there is something really wrong with you. My proposed change gives more power to units with high ARM and high DAM weapons( which cost most points ), so more points you invest, more return you get. This is logical, I don't see how can anyone argue against this. It also passively buffs all 1W models. So units on both ends of the spectrum get something.