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Face to face and total immunity

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Please, save your nitpicking for some other discussion board and try reading the rules more thoughtfully instead.
    BS Attack in Infinity consists of BS Attack Declaration and its Resolution in the Effects step of the Order Expenditure Sequence. During the attack declaration you determine whether it will be a Face to Face roll or not. Any effects of any special ammo involved in the attack are only checked in the Effects step of the Order Expenditure Sequence. Since you don't know the outcome of the Attack before rolls are made and you apply all MODs (including FtF MODs from Smoke, C&H etc.) in the Resolution step of the Order Expenditure Sequence, 'Affected by an Attack' can only mean one thing.
     
    Sabin76 likes this.
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I think you may have been a little overly harsh in that first sentence. People who are new to the forums/game can often use colloquial meanings of words to try and tease out intent in rules. We shouldn't be overly offensive to those who try, but be patient as they learn that this rule set breaks very easily if you are allowed to do that.
     
  3. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Indeed, I was a little overly harsh with that first sentence, and that was intentional. I really don't like it when people start getting picky about word meanings in a game ruleset, because this usually leads to a slippery slope. I mean, they probably got what I and @Mahtamori were trying to say, given that both of us clearly made a distinction between affected by an attack and suffers the effects of an attack, yet they seem to pretend like they don't have a clue about what is going on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    However, I do sincerely apologise if I got it completely wrong and there was no malicious intent involved.
     
    #23 n21lv, Dec 7, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  4. pseudonymmster

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    @n21lv You should probably never assume malicious intent. I still am not convinced that McMurrough is being affected by anything.

    At the very least, you can respect that it's a very unique situation that's only recently become an issue, so people aren't going to have the same interpretations on the rules.

    @LZ35SRX Not sure how dodging a smoke template is relevant to the discussion?
     
  5. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    @pseudonymmster Try to provide some rules-based counterargument, please. It's hard to argue with someone who just says "No" to whatever argument their opponent provides.

    Anyway, this is a non-issue since the question has already been 'answered' (see IJW's like on comment #2).
     
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  6. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is that since there's no effect from Flash Pulse on McMurder, there won't be a FtF roll. However, we already have a situation in rules, where an attack that has no effect on it's targets (Smoke ammunition does not affect any troopers by itself, only the ZVZ created by it does) is treated as an actual attack. The type of roll becomes FtF, because there are two troopers "affecting" each other, regardless of the fact that there is no effect on trooper hit by the smoke template.
     
  7. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    A bit of a problem with this example - since Dodge isn't an attack and Sixth Sense attack cannot be interrupted by Smoke, Special Dodge trait doesn't work here, so the rolls will not be FtF.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If the trooper wasn't formally affected by the smoke template, they would not be allowed to Dodge if they are touched by the smoke template, yet there is a clear example stating otherwise. However, I do not think Smoke ammo results in an attack on those affected*, but the Face to Face rules do not care if the effect is an attack or not.

    * This really does need an FAQ
     
  9. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Smoke is technically an attack due to the skill used - BS Attack, so at the Short Skill - ARO - Short Skill steps it is treated as such. When we get to the Resolution step, that's when most of the special interactions become relevant, like Dodge to get out of the Smoke Area of Effect being a Normal Roll.

    There is a point that if Smoke is an attack, you can't put it on your own troopers, but IIRC the rules of declaration - you are free to declare whatever you think is right and invalid orders will become Idle, but you measure distances and areas of effect at the Resolution step, and we have special interaction that Smoke can be used with friendly troopers in its Area of Effect.

    Edit to avoid multiposting:
    Could you provide a quote for that? There is nothing in the rules of Smoke or Sixth Sense to imply that this is true. Ignoring -6 from aroing through ZVZ doesn't magically disable Special Dodge trait of Smoke.
     
    #29 LZ35SRX, Dec 9, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I guess that's the point:
    To be affected by an attack, it is enough that the target can possibly suffer an effect from it.
    But whether it does or doesn't suffer an effect is determined after the (F2F) roll.

    And yeah, the rules even state that you can be affected by an attack that has no effect on you:
     
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  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Some comments on this:
    1. Smoke Special Dodge is not Dodge, but a BS Attack that let's you dodge attacks. But still not the Dodge skill.
    2. The smoke template starts to exist at the resolution of the order. The fact that it is able to affect actions/skills during that order is only due to the Smoke Special Dodge rules.
    3. So Sixth Sense does not come into play, (well, only if shot at from behind), as the smoke is not there to begin with (no -6 mod to be avoided).
    (4. What is a "Sixth Sense attack"? Sixth sense only let's you ignore the -6 mod in the reactive turn, not in the active turn. And this interaction has nothing to do with Smoke Special Dodge which negates all affected attacks.)
     
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  12. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    It's in the first bullet.

    To clarify, I'm not arguing that this example is not demonstrating your point, just that it's not doing it clearly enough. The mechanics are the same as TI trooper throwing smoke vs Flash, but the result is different due to Smoke rules.
    We were talking exactly about getting covered by smoke template thrown by enemy in his active turn, from behind, and declaring AROs to it (here). The ARO options are Dodge (granted by template rules, at -3), which isn't an Attack and thus will not be FtF with smoke, as by smoke rules, it can only be FtF with attacks; and, if you have Sixth Sense (and the throw was from your ZoC, in case it's SS1) - you can declare a BS attack (or CC attack, if the throw was from your ZoC, you delayed declaration, and the enemy moved to base contact in his second half of the order). As by the quote above, attack declared via use of Sixth Sense does not require LoF, and thus cannot be disrupted by smoke; it also won't be FtF with smoke, as again, by the smoke rules, only attacks that require LoF can be FtF with smoke.
    I think that addressed all of your points.
     
    #32 Gunmage, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  13. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    I think that is a problem with differing RAW and RAI, because if Sixth Sense actually removed the LoF tag from your Attack skill, you could ARO Attack a model that speculative fired a grenade at your SS model. Same for the Smoke specifically blocking Attacks that require LoF.

    As it stands, AFAIK, you can't Attack an active trooper with a SS ARO, if you can't draw a LoF to them from any point of your model. Thus IMO the intent is that Sixth Sense removes the facing requirement, not the LoF requirement, effectively granting your SS model a 360 Visor to react to this attack only.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is not in either of the quotes. In either case, Sixth Sense does not grant BS Attack the No LOF trait, it allows you to ignore the MOD that being shot through a ZVZ imposes so you're not able to do things like shooting through walls. And in the case of a Smoke template being put down on your trooper, there is no ZVZ to ignore yet in either case so that doesn't apply.

    You keep quoting Smoke as your source of rules when there are so many more rules in play. Also remember that Special Dodge sets up criterias for using Special Dodge, but in this situation we're not trying to use Special Dodge. Special Ammo does not replace the game's most basic interactions unless they specifically say they do, which Smoke does not. Smoke adds further interactions to it via Special Dodge, but the basic functionality of Face to Face roll is not removed.

    Here is the situation.

    Zhanying (6S L2) is standing with their back towards the Ghulam (Smoke and Normal Grenade Launcher).
    The Ghulam shoots one of their grenades on the Zhanying.
    Because the Zhanying is affected by a template, they can choose to Dodge due to the template rules.
    If the grenade is a Normal grenade, the Zhanying can shoot back due to being attacked and making use of Sixth Sense Level 2. It will be a Face to Face because then the Zhanying would be affecting the Ghulam as well.
    If the grenade is a Smoke grenade, the Zhanying can not shoot back due to Special Dodge stating that "it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack" and as such Sixth Sense will not have its necessary trigger of being attacked. Should the Zhanying choose to Dodge, it will not be a Face to Face because Dodge can only evade attacks and we have already established that this is not an attack.

    A different situation.

    Hsien (MSV2) is looking directly at a Ghulam (Smoke and Normal Grenade Launcher).
    The Ghulam shoots one of their grenades on the Hsien.
    The Hsien elects to shoot back
    Because the Hsien is affected (touched) by the template, this fulfils the only requirement for a Face to Face that a regular Face to Face using no additional rules have.
    If the grenade is a Normal grenade, the Hsien risks being damaged.
    If the grenade is a Smoke grenade, the MSV 2 will not do anything because Special Dodge is not being used by the Ghulam and MSV does not allow you to ignore Smoke ammo it allows you to ignore ZVZs and Special Dodge.
     
  15. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    I think you are mixing LoF and total cover here. LoF includes both requirement for being able to trace a line from one silhouette to another and requirement for the target to be in forward arc. 360 visor gives you a 360 degree vision arc, sixth sense - removes both these requirements, as per the first bullet point in its wording, but it does not let you ignore total cover - that's why you can't shoot through walls with it. Smoke does not give total cover (it's not a piece of scenery), so, for example, you can, in fact, respond with an attack if someone SpecFires from behind at your SS2 trooper over an ZVZ, but you cannot respond if the attacker is behind a building.

    But, apparently, you can't trigger Sixth Sense with Smoke, as Mahtamori wrote, so this argument is irrelevant in this thread.