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Explode vs Dodge

Discussion in 'Rules' started by ObviousGray, May 14, 2019.

  1. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Recent issues in our community.

    I hope this does not go into personal attacks.


    1) Kuang Shi advances into Camo Marker's vicinity.

    2) AROs are declared. Camo goes Idle, another one shoots Kuang Shi.

    3) Kuang Shi gets hit, fails the ARM roll; thus explode activates.

    4) Can Camo declare dodge?


    Problem happened on Step 3-4. Since Camo marker was idle about Kuang Shi's advance, we thought he lost his chance for dodging. But the examples from wiki says he can (From Civvies tap, Gaki explosion). So this headed to rules forums.

    Can camo marker still declare dodge, despite forfeiting his ARO chance?

    In advance, what if Camo dodges in ARO, but gets caught by explode at the end of damage steps? Can he dodge, again?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Can idle camo Dodge?

    No, for two reasons.
    1. Camo marker declined their ARO and thus lost it
    2. Camo marker does not have an opportunity to dodge because Explode is an Effect step skill.
    3. Bonus! Since Explode happens after you apply effects, any successful Dodge or Change Facing effects will also have already been applied and mechanically can't save your Marker. To keep your Marker safe, have it Dodge out of the template area or ARO with Shock.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence

    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.
    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.
    3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.
    4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.
    5. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.
    6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.
    7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls.
    8. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.
      1. Apply Effects, Make ARM/BTS rolls
      2. Realize Kuang Shi is unconscious and decline Dogged. Kuang Shi Explodes
      3. Make Explode ARM/BTS rolls
    9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects.
     
  3. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Thank you for fast response. The ments from Civvie rules confused the logic.

    If CB got some spare time, I wouldn't mind some dusting on the sentences..
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Here's the sequence in terms of declaration:

    1. Player A activates Kuang Shi
    2. Player A spends an Extremely Impetuous Order on Kuang Shi
    3. Player A declares Move directly towards a Line Kazak, having to go around Player R's Camouflage Marker
    4. Player R declares BS Attack using Rifle with Line Kazak, distributing 1 burst to Kuang Shi. Player R declares no ARO with Marker
    5. Player A declares BS Attack using Pistol with Line Kazak distributing 2 burst to Line Kazak.
    6. Player R has gained no new AROs and has nothing to declare.
    7. Players measure distance, determines the Line Kazak is in +3 and Kuang Shi is in -3 range bands for a massive disadvantage, both players roll.
    8. Player A rolls ARM, fails roll, declines use of Dogged, Kuang Shi is forced to declare Explode L1 due to Obligatory trait. Kuang Shi is removed.
      • Mini resolution steps activate!
      • (6) Template is placed, determines to touch the Marker and no Civilian unit. No skills requiring a roll need to be resolved
      • (7) Marker rolls ARM, Camouflaged state is cancelled, unless it is an Ambush Camouflage in which case there's nothing for the explosion to force an ARM roll on.
    9. Player R rolls Guts if Marker survives
     
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is the problem example, yes?

    Example. Automatic Attack and a Civilian
    A Civilian is close to a Gaki, a trooper possessing the Explode Special Skill. The Gaki fails an ARM Roll, entering the Unconscious state, so its Explode Special Skill is activated. When placing the Circular Template, the player checks it affects the Civilian model, so the Attack with the Circular Template is considered null, enemy troopers affected by the template can declare their AROs and the Gaki enters the Dead state at the end of the Order.
     
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  6. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Exactly.

    Thats a clear sum-up. I do hope I can explode my KS soo enough!
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is one question I have regarding Explode and Kuang Shis.

    IJW has stated that Explode Kuang Shi special skill must be considered an attack performed by the Celestial Guard with the Kuang Shi Control Device, and as such anyone touched by the template can Dodge but will do so on -3 if they can't see the Celestial Guard. Does this mean a Kuang Shi's template touching a friendly will turn into an Idle and those Kuang Shi won't die?

    The civvie rule is just a rule that only applies to civvies, in part so that accidentally losing the game doesn't occur through Explode. It doesn't apply to Markers, and crucially the Explode L1 skill is not an attack so it will harm the Kuang Shi's friends and can be used on camouflage Markers just fine.
    Interestingly enough, the Explode skill is not "Indiscriminate" which I think it should be.

    This rule from http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Civilian_Rules:
    • Automatic Attacks (as the one of the Explode Special Skill, for example) which affect a Civilian will be considered null.
     
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  8. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    <hollow laughter> :wink:
     
  9. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Detonate Kuang Shi has an example.

    A Celestial Guard with a Kuang Shi Control Device spends one Entire Order and declares Detonate Kuang Shi. As his Combat Group contains two Kuang Shi, the Celestial Guard activates the Explode L1 Special Skill of both troopers. The player places the Circular Template over each of them and finds that each template affects two enemy troopers. As none of them has LoF to the Celestial Guard they must declare a PH-3 Normal Roll to Dodge the Template.​

    But it’s the last bullet point of Explode L1 that kills its user, and I don’t know that that’s dependent on the attack not being cancelled. (After all, the Attack might catch models in situations where they don’t get to dodge and thus there are no rolls to resolve.)
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'd agree with that change, but IIRC Explode used to affect Civvies (in N2) and one of the major changes in N3 was that Civvies canceled any attacks. There were situation where an incautious explosion would cause you to lose a game, if you happened to catch a Civvie in the blast.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Indiscriminate wouldn't do anything to Civilians since it mechanically only has effect on camouflage and hiding Markers. It does also guide players in how to habdle it which is a bonus.

    Big thing is that HVTs have migrated to being Civilians.
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's the rules text for Explode Kuang Shi that says that, not me!

    But a cancelled template is just that template getting nullified - it doesn't turn a declared Skill into an Idle. In any case, that wouldn't apply to Explode L1 as that's not a Short Skill etc. but an Automatic Skill.
     
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  13. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    So making it short, it cannot be dodged since it happens on the conclusion phase of ARM rolls. Am I clear?
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As far as I'm aware, that's correct.
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, I follow you now.