It's not about using less Druze as possible, with only 2 and Gromoz or Arslan you are sometimes hard pressed to reform the core team. Druze are the elite badasses that run the show, like HI in another faction. Instead of multiple wounds they get tons of kit and skills to bail themselves out of nearly any range band or the Retreat! state. Most lists I write tend to have 3 Druze and Gromoz and/or Arslan. While that seemed low to me in the "Druze" sectorial, I don't know of any sectorial that is solely based around one troop. More than anything, even their cost, the 4-2 MOV score is what holds the Druze back from being viable at every role. They can't reposition efficiently and it limits their ability to score or push across field. That's why the other units like Hunz, Peacemaker and the Angry Ninja are necessary. Fortunately as a whole the sectorial is well designed, even if the Druze themselves have roles they cannot fulfil easily.
well designed? :(...i'd love to see new druze (...only HMG is usefull, rest...situational. Very... Those different loadouts, which do not come for free, but with druze to increase the cost?.. Im playing league with Druze right now, and I've played previous leagues with steel phalanx, tohaa and combined army. Druze are so...just the worst part of sectorial. Very good infiltrators, nice AD, cheap assault hacker browler...expensive, but Ok gromova ... and rest is meh :(...meh tags, lack of HI, meh expensive druze (((....now cheap orders but 2x kameel, 2x fugazi... great cash policy from CB :( well designed sectorial? :) Sectorial is interesting, but unfortinatly, druze is far from being its most interesting part.
Hmm, maybe try the mimetism sniper? It's probably even a better offensive choice in many circumstances even over the HMG. I find I typically take the LGL Druze, the KHD, the Lt, and the HMG most often. The HMG gets traded out for the Shock marksman rifle if I need SWC for Armand, or Scarface. Yeah, the sectorial is well designed. I have done well with it this season, it's the only army I've played in ITS in season 9. I've played 36 rounds of ITS with them at this point, including the at largest USA event, and not mentioning dozens of pickup games. The sectorial works well together and has great non-traditional solutions for dealing with some of the toughest on table problems. The Druze themselves are pretty interesting to me, while most games they just play area-denial firebase, they often pack a whole lot of tricks for units who think that they can take them out up close. Druze have also won or tied me several games in Retreat! Their armor is super solid, and yeah they are moderately expensive, but they fit nicely into the sectorial. Scarface is not a "Meh" TAG at all, he's extremely efficient for his cost.
DBS is a well designed sectorial. It is not without it's intentional limitations, but what it does have works great together and wins games. If I had to list the merits of DBS at this point, having had over 50+ games with them, and being mostly successful I'd say the highlights are... Core team redundancy, and being able to keep the 5 man bonus well into the late game and having link flexibility at deployment. Free fireteam duo on lots of units. The Peacemaker's ability to multi-role and be a speedbump, impetuous bait, rambo, repeater and disposable DTW. MSV-2 sniper in a link that damn near hits everything on 15s or 18s. The things that want to attack link teams do not want to attack her, and she invalidates smoke as a dodge. Hunzakuts being goddamned rock stars. They score, lay mines, have every relevant range band covered, give out Targeted state, contribute to the repeater net and are competent assassins. Saito having smoke and being a specialist, with the ability to be a glass cannon assassin. He wins scenarios like Rescue, L&S, cap & prot, etc. Cheapest AHD in the game. Hackers linked to get SSL2 with one of the best repeater nets in the game. Clipper (or HRL) in a link for AROs to limit enemy fireteam movement. Scarface with the pocket engineer fireteam makes a truly unique and cost efficient TAG. Fugazis.... nuff said they are amazing alone, but they also have a synergy with DBS' repeater net and Pathfinder AVA. Linked EM lgl, because sometimes it's the best tool for the job and it makes people play differently. Druze Shock Teams offensive toolbox, decent durability and skills. Moderate armor making a lot of the sectorial more durable than most line infantry. An abundance of midfield troops that are potent and fill several roles. Indirect solutions to HI/TAG/REMs. Spec EM nade and Repeater net with competent/cheap hackers. DBS actually makes spotlight and forward observing (even more) worth the order expenditure with units like the Clipper, and EM LGL. Shooting like a boss, linked BS 12 with Targeted potential and sometimes with Fatality. As for the cons.... Slow core troop and fireteam means a lot of the "real" work gets done by other units. Fireteam core dependency makes deployment often predictable and leaves a large footprint of units vulnerable to template attacks. No HI, Scarface is as close as we get. No impetuous orders. Not many units overall in the whole sectorial. List flexibility becomes an issue, most lists generally look alike and all are dependent on the core fireteam which is a minimum 100+ points. Limited AD, bashis don't have the same mid-game tactical flexibility as most AD units. No multi-wound units and only TAGs for more than one Structure, so few good Data Tracker options/Few durable Rambos. Obvious Lt is obvious, only one is moderately durable and he is expensive. Only one unit with a large DTW. Limited MSV-2 for camo hunting. Dependence on REMs exacerbates vulnerability to HD, AHD, and EM. Repeater net exposure can make the hackers extremely vulnerable to KHD, even if they are in a fireteam with SSL2.
Well...i'm VERY curious with whom your games were, and if they were competitive - in our local meta I can't say druze as a sectorial stay above anything (ok, mb in some cases above morats, but we have no morats in league). But interesting arguments. I like them, but would add smth. ( if too many letters - in short - Druze sectorial is not bad, but druze medium infatry is so so, hard to play potential, and is one of the weakest part of sectorial, which is a pity...don't take druze in druze sectorial ;( but you have to take them..without you can't have 5member link (() Highlights: 1. About core team...and that you can find replacement easily. It is nice, if you do not need to go anywhere. But when you come into midfield - any shit with mine shall eat your link alive (that high PH and 1 wound). + you'll spend more orders with 4-2 movement+ didn't you notice, how ***ing difficult to go with link with mixed move values(one has 4-4, another 4-2). You contstatly not sure if you're keeping coherency, you have difficulties to put every link member in proper cover. Then again, having an additional druze, or gromova somewhere near to have a guaranty of 5+ bonus means we spent more on batteries, instead action figures. We have no cheap replacement, so less orders. 2. Hahahaha....duooo...Duo!? Really ? To generate normal rolls for hidden snipers? Or be even more aware of any template weapons? Duo itself is a Very situational option with some drawbacks. 3. Peacemaker. Well, I didn't say sectorial had no nice pieces - I said druze (that medium infatry) is a weak chain, which you try take as less as possible. Peacemaker is great, has lots of uses, isn't expensive...no argue with that 4. MSV2 brawler - he is good. When he has things to shoot to. But when he need to find a better position, he has to take with him slow druze buddies. If there would be an option of core brawlers link - we would almost never see a competitive druze sectorial army list with any druze medium infantry in it..And he has more uses then druze sniper...smoke+shoot, TO\CH camo hunter-discoverer...a very good one 5-6-7 ... again no druze medium infantry here 8. Hakers in link... Oh, I thought the same too...before actually trying it. And then a caught trinity several times. Having several hakers without camo in practically one place (nicely placed pitcher to catch all hakers in one link) and I have a very nice chance to loose all of them. Again, you're speaking about hakers in link with some ARO piece in it. So when a HI or Tag come close you will have to choose if either hack, or shoot, and if you want to use everything, you brake link, after what enemy khd camo hakers finishes the job. Situational...very... and can be a biiiig weakness. 9. After unidrones in link, Clipper guy in link became even better. good piece...And god, I want him so much to be part of core brawlers instead of core druze... ;( 10. Scarface... can be great...sure...unless you see for example, double missle launcher fusiler 5 member link. Or proxy TO sniper in far away position or...well... any decent aro far away, good placed. So your Tag has to wait for some hunzakuts, druze hmg\sniper\, infiltrators to deal with aro, so you can go for rampage. Cordelia though is a very good specialist, with nice price and weapon options. Compare Scarface with orc hmg, azrail ap hmg whom we can heal with reroll and who shoots further, cost cheaper. Scarface with Anaconda are worst tags in game. Instead of any HI druze got crappy tags :( 11. Fugazi...and source of cheap orders...together with kameel...very good..pity they are the onliest cheap options..next go ABH with boarding shotgun for 15 pts ;(. That mystical hacking net ... it sounds nice, but pfff...we have all hackers in one place to get trinity into a face. And our hakers are FAR from being the best one. I would'nt count on winnig with hakers vs anyone who does hacking well. 12. linked EM lgl...oh yea...in theory it can be so devastating...but in practise... I had charontide in 20x20 mission playing vs me. We had some target antennas in midfield. So he just put his charontide as far as possible, so I would have to go hunting for to have + distance. And I didnt do it. Why? because there were plenty of pretas in midfield. And I might make him LOS, but then I would probably loose all my druze\brawler\gromova link to pretas chain rifles...because I'm just slow. And that is if Ill beat him with ONE die on 12 vs his 11...+ if he fail bts roll...how much chanses for that + considering the fact It want grant me a win? Risky, lottery. That what one die lgl means...Damn lottery. And I want to play competitevly. I shall not count on a lottery. Though other thing with it - it scares people out, so they don't want to come close to druze with HI or Tags...Instead - expirienced players will kill all my ARO and come closly with chain rifles :( 13. offensive toolbox usually means some resilense to keep it alive to make some...offence :) What druze have? 3arm/3bts and 4-2 move? If they had anything ...mimitism\ 6-2 move\ odd\NWI\ high PH or hyper-dynamics?...mb even dogged ... our offensive box is an expensive and slow glass cannon which is very hard to place properly and control...and all this great offence can die from one freaking mine. meeeh 14. 3 arm 3 bts... if...if only they had 1 arm and 1 bts, but NWI or even Dogged - that would make them like 100%+more resilent...arm 3 doesn't make you pass all armor saves automaticaly...you still die great from mines and chain rifles, but 10% less often (many LI has that 1 arm..so)... 15. midfield units...which are not druze ..again...druze sectorial without druze medium infantry - mb druze need to have some infiltration? like moblots? that can be nice...or even full fnuctional AD? or AD:infiltration?... 16...and those hackers are not the best one...aaaand ....we better at hacking comparing to Tohaa, Morats (which actually is arguable, as their usuas haker has sucker punch, and their KHD is multi-functional and cheap), Ariadna, Ikari? (but they have camo khd...with infiltration...hm...so doubtfull)...all other factions can have similar hakicng net, but with more hakers. And better ones. Druze hakers are expensive (excluding assault brawler..yep), usualy sit in one place, and not the best in their field. So I can't get it where that hacking myth about druze comes from. 17. spotlight + guide attack you're talking about one die attack. Which consumes lots of orders. How in a name of .... anything it can be competitive and efficient. It's a lottery... Expensive order consuming lottery. 18. shooting like a boss? Squalo shoots like a boss and do not die when misses and getting missile into a face. Druze medium infantry just shoot 5% more painfully then other infantry. Again...if they have targets, if they have survived several chain rifles and mines, and if they had enough orders to come into a right place with their short legs and 4-2 movement. I just constatly repeat - in druze sectorial, druze medium infantry is weak dragging down chain-part. Cons: Aaand we are agree to many things as I can see. Then why defending druze medium infantry? I don't say sectorial is bad - I say druze medium infatry is so-so, and it would be nice if they would see some rework. Because now - instead of being Star of sectorial, they are its weak spot.
Look I'm breaking my instinct to just walk away and let you stew in your perceptions... but... Yes my games were very competitive and I've won and lost games against some of the best. At Rumble I came in 4th with 4 major victories and one loss. My loss was to Cobraprime who is currently tied for 1st in the US and he won Rumble. I'm currently ranked 24th in the US having attended several events out of my State and several more out of my local meta. This year I chose to not go to some of the events I have attended in the past and my first competitive outing with DBS was a disaster for me, so I had to make up a lot of ELO. If you are "VERY curious" then look me up on ITS rankings, then look up my opponents and their rankings it's all public info. I don't claim to be the best player, but I'm competent and play competitive games against very competitive players, including some of the highest ranked. Hopefully that should satisfy you that I know what I'm talking about, if not I'm sorry I mentioned it. I don't really want this to be an epeen contest, I'm just trying to point out that DBS is a good sectorial and performs well, and that Druze Shock Teams aren't bad. DBS isn't just "not bad", it's an excellent sectorial in the right hands. It can stand with the top armies and against the best players. I have explained to you why I'm defending the Druze shock teams, they are good; plain and simple. Where you see expensive, I see skills and gear that takes experience and planning to utilize to your advantage. They are the Elite glue in the core fireteam and my goal is never to take as few as possible, though most of my lists run 2-4. I have had Druze in Retreat! make a move, shot, or have another unit use his order and score where that activation won or tied me games because of Veteran. This requires thinking ahead and having a unit in position before the game goes south. When I play I often position units for later turns instead of making unnecessary offensive moves. Viral pistols are incredibly deadly, and often are significantly better that the combi under 8", in quite a few games it has probably made the difference by firing it over the combi. The infinity dice calculator can show you the probability difference the viral pistol can achieve over the combi. Fatality is just nice, it helps especially with things like the Viral pistol and EM lgl. Xvisors are great for SF, and amazing on the EM LGL, and can often allow the Druze to shoot as though they were BS 15 (or 18 in a link), you know; like a boss. Chain colts force hard decisions on your opponent when they are in range. Having to take a DAM 13 hit, discourages a lot of short range attacks, and when it doesn't the ARM on the Druze can help them survive where the opponent's unit does not. ARM 3 BTS 3 is very good, it's a 50/50 shot on chain rifles and while it doesn't work every time, being in cover and reducing HMG shots to a 50/50 save is pretty significant. Fireteam Duo is excellent. It's about order efficiency, if you don't get it you should try to understand why it's good before you condemn it as useless. In my opinion it is much more useful in DBS than either of their Harris options because it's free of an SWC tax and having to take a particular unit to make it work. The EM lgl is not something you spam fire, but often an indirect solution to some of Infinity's toughest problems is worth the low odds shot that won't involve any risk to your units. Sometimes it's the best tool for the job, and you don't have to move it across the board, often the thing you want to hit with it will come into your range bands. Those skills and gear are the reason Druze shock teams cost so much, and I have used them all to my advantage when playing DBS. An argument can be made that they are overcosted, but saying that they are bad is something that I cannot agree with. I'm hoping that my points will open your eyes to how to use them, but it may be that you have already decided that they are bad and don't have an open mind to my points. In that case, my arguments are for the benefit of new players that come to this thread and can see some coherent counterpoints to your negative opinions. My gut feeling is that you probably wouldn't like the old Druze costs any better in DBS and would still complain about them. You state you want a Brawler link, but that's never going to happen, so you're comparing the units and Fireteam to something that doesn't exist. Druze Shock Team's only problem in my view is the 4-2 movement, and if they were 4-4 they would be even more expensive; but probably be even more worth the cost. I stand by my defense of Druze shock teams, I feel they are good. They are definitely not DBS' weak spot. The ABH and Anaconda are the units I don't take. You say you don't think the sectorial is bad, but you attacked nearly everyone of my points of merit with anecdotal evidence and situationally worst case examples as to why my points aren't valid, I won't accept those examples as valid and to me it just points out a lack of experience with the sectorial. For instance.... Outside of the Cutter or Avatar, there are nearly no TAGs you'd reliably attack a linked Fusi missile launcher with, the risk to your TAG is way too high. Of course you'd bring another unit to support, or smoke your way out of that. The example of healing with an ORC or Azaril, is silly when Scarface has more Structure and an Engineer in a fireteam duo. No joke here, my opinion is that Scarface is one of the most cost efficient TAGs in all of Infinity in DBS. As a side note, I never take Kameels to be cheap orders. They are too fat and have so few redeeming qualities that I would always choose to have an extra Brawler or Pathfinder in their place, that utility is worth an extra order in my opinion.
hmm...I've mostly attacked those of your points, where druze medium infantry take place. And pity I can't see lists and factions and those duos in your ITS - I don't know is there such a function? can't find it;( But I'd be glad to see the DBS list you've take 4th place with on Rumble ;). And my examples are not out of nowhere - I've described real situations I've met on table while playnig with druze. I guess, I just can't fulfil the potential of "marvelous" druze shock team. Oh, and I'd love to play vs you, because I would learn a lot from that game. Because in my hands druze shock team did not perform well. Most of my games were won by huzakuts, clipper, peacemakers, saito...even brawlers, but not druze :(... though druze multisniper performed well while fighting aro's ...hmm...and thats all :(
I understand the real world, examples.. but still they are anecdotal and with different dice rolls or tactics, they could have easily gone a different direction. I will send you the lists I played @Rumble in a PM. It's not entirely the lists though that won those games. I would also enjoy playing you, I wish we could do so sometime.
@jfunkd Nice, thank you!... mb by some accident you're going to visit Poland? :)...I definitely will visit USA, but not sure when it'll happen ;( I understand importance of skill in Inifnity (Infinity is the most skill depended scirmish game of all i've ever met 0_0) and that lists themselves do not win you anything, but I'm curious to what unit combinations experienced DBS player has come to.
Giving MI a points discount for their slow MOV like Frenzy does, would be an easy and good solution through the board for all MI, I guess.
From what I can tell MI get a discount that's worth about the points of going from ARM1 to ARM2, maybe even a point or two more.
I assumed they do cost less because of that Movement score, though the discount probably isn't reflective of how hard it actually impacts order efficiency in game.
---------Game experience I had another game with them yesterday and tried a different approach. I tried using the link team resilience as a tactic, instead of a recovery. During set up I put the MSV2 brawler in a core link, and intentionally left him in on a roof while the rest stayed on the ground. Normally I either put a full link in defensive positions on roof tops for ARO purposes, or put them on the ground to move forward. The goal was to have the MSV2 sniper get all the boost on my opponents turn , then reform the link with a spare model when it was time for the Druze to move forward. Because you don't have to define your links when building your lists you can adjust if you are first or second. The tactic ate most of my opponents order turn 1. His list was built to try eclipse smoke grenades to move his melee em-link forward (steel phalanx). The MSV2 super sniper scared him. He was able to trade his em-link for my Druze link. It took all his order to move up, and got a single chain rifle on 4 of my link. Unfortunately all 4 dropped in the same chainrfle attack. I was able to have haris link run over and the doctor healed 2 Druze. Those 2 with my SPARE were able able reform a 5 man link the brawler and push forward. While it was in the plan to reform the link, this was a recovery action instead of a planned tactic. If I didn't have Saito doing his thing I would of had a much hard time. -----------Discussion opinion I find my SUCCESSFUL games are the ones that my Druze core moves in late game. Using everything else to hit your opponent from the side. People tend to focus on the links, and the druze tend to do more by sitting back and letting your opponent send stuff at them. The fact they recover from the hit it's their best feature. Even is loss of LT, they recover easily. I no longer even try to build list with more than 1 potencial LT. The issue with that is they can't always get to where they need to be late game. As for Scarface, I think he is one of the best Tags in the game. He is even better when in DBS. I own 3 Tags and because of his cost effectiveness he is used the most. While the Marut is stronger I find she is not better. she breaks the balance of the list. In other games you want to bring in a list that overdoses your opponents ability to deal with 1 skill. Ininfinty you need to bring a balanced list because you need a tool box of options. When you have Marut you have leave too much behind. A sledgenamer is nice, but won't help you If you need a screwdriver. I'd rather have a normal hammer and a screwdriver.
I often do this in tandem with the Clipper. I love going second with DBS, because that sniper hits pretty much everything on 15s or 18s. I have, no joke, lost count of how many times she's killed multiple units in ARO. It's a hell of a challenge for your opponent to overcome.
This is kind of my standard list when I am not building for a tournament or scenario. I miss the LSG that the Brawler Lt brings, but the Druze Lt is a little bit more survivable and generally makes better FtF target numbers than the brawler, mainly because I love SF mode for Lt defense. It runs a duo behind or near the core to reinforce after the sniper and/or Clipper go down. If I go first, then most players are freaked by the Peacemaker and rob its BG of orders, leaving the first BG to do everything I need it to do, and 2 orders is usually enough for the Peacemaker as I tend to be suicidal with them. Midfield MOV 6" HFT does pretty well with only 2, and can still leave the HSG for ARO duty. If it goes second, then my opponents have to find a way around a vicious ARO game and several midfield speed bumps to score or hit the core team, other than the dedicated ARO units of course. Even when they do drop the Clipper and Sniper, the link can still be reformed to give the lgl and HMG 5 member bonuses. Standard ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 DRUZE HMG, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) DRUZE Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) DRUZE (X Visor) Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (E/M and Nimbus) / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27) DRUZE Lieutenant (X Visor) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28) CLIPPER DRONBOT Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) VALERYA GROMOZ Hacker (Hacking Device UPGRADE: Expel) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40) GROUP 2 4 PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
