Why one? I am actually asking here, why would one be appropriate/consistent? Why not all damage from a source, or all non-critical damage a la symbiomates? Why not up to 2? G:RP introduces a replacement effect. It replaces the structure regain from Engineer with a revert to active state at 1STR. What that _should_ do in this case is a mystery to me; I am always curious when people approach it with certainty.
Again, there is no timing between which effects are applied within the same order. Everything happens at the same time. Of course there will be a difference if the actions are taken in different orders! I mean, Take 2, Take 2, oops I can't repair a Dead target! Because there is precedent from answers regarding Doctor on NWI. I see no reason why Engineer would be treated differently.
I would add that doctor is still healing for NWI cancellation, vs. engineer regain being replaced by the G:RO effect to revert to 1STR.
Just to note, as the main proponent of having the Samaritan/Aswang/Sheskiin become shock immune even while reverting back to 1W, IJW was the last word on the subject and it was his interpretation that it acted like Dr healing while taking 1W in damage and they completely cancel (as quoted above). No shock immunity. No instant death. I'm not sure how that helps the current conversation, though...
I think you are misinterpreting the text there. The phrase "second level of the Unconscious state" does not mean that there is a different state. It is still the Unconscious state. There is, quite literally, no "Unconscious L2" state. There is only Unconscious. All Remote Presence does is circumvent the normal rules for Unconsciousness and Death. "...if the Wounds/Structure Attribute falls below 0, the trooper enters the Dead state." In the case of Remote Presence, "if the trooper receives damage again and loses one further STR point, it does not enter the Dead state as usual." Instead, the trooper is still in the Unconscious state. Hence you put a second Unconscious marker on the model, not an "Unconscious L2" marker. The fact that the rule works this way is not an accident. It works this way because the Engineer skill only allows the target to "regain 1 Structure point" and simultaneously cancel the Unconscious state. CB wanted to make robots work like robots, so they had to bend the rules somewhere. They chose to bend the rules by creating a limited 'stacking state' effect, rather than creating a separate and unique state distinct from Unconscious. One can argue about which way to break the basic rules would be more elegant, but setting that debate aside, the above is the way CB chose to break the basic rules of the game. Remote Presence breaks the basic Unconsciousness and Death rules by allowing the model to still be Unconscious after taking a wound while in the Unconscious state, but only once. Hence the extra marker. As an aside, it would have been much more elegant, in my opinion, to make a separate and unique set of states, e.g. "Malfunction L1" and "Malfunction L2." Wound/Structure falls to 0, get the Malfunction L1 state. Take a wound in Malfunction L1, replace with Malfunction L2, take a wound in Malfunction L2, enter the Dead state. Engineer cancels all Malfunction states. That way, instead of 'breaking' the rules with a weird interaction that otherwise has no basis in the core game rules (stacking two copies of the same state), you simply replace Unconscious state with 'Malfunction L1'. It would be more wordy in the rules, but it would not require a fundamental departure from the structure of how States work.
Do you have the link? Memory was they summed. Which is why the discussion went the way it did. But that woukd pretty well clear up Dr vs T2 as well.
for Doctor: Akbar? No, no link. I was asked how I'd handle it and that's how I'd handle it. I consider Akbar, repairing Unc-2 etc to have the extra "levels" as recovery similar to Shock does straight to dead - i.e. you actually have to recover a wound/STR to gain the additional health benefits and if you don't recover anything you never got the extra benefits. T2 vs Doctor I don't know at all, I find it unclear whether the ammo does two wounds or if it's an extra wound.
Yeah, I’m happy to disagree with people on the internet, but in this case I think we’re largely on the same page. I agree that there are two levels of a state called Unconscious applied - which G:RP refers to as two distinct levels _of_ Unconsciousness. I guess there are potentially more than semantic differences between the second of two distinct levels and a 2nd level (no of) Unconscious that may be worth discussing at some point, but I’m not sure it’s relevant to the questions here. And while I like your two levels of malfunction, as a way of representing things more cleanly, I think the underlying issue would remain. Basically, I think we agree for the most part on this stuff. Where we might be missing each other is that I think you are asserting (could be wrong) that engineer heals an unconscious model to 1 STR and cancels two distinct levels at once same as if it were one level of unconsciousness. I agree that’s the outcome, but think the specifics of how that happens are different than what you suggest. You note that engineer ‘heals’ (I’d say regains, but sure) a structure point, and cancels the unconscious state (this is why I think you suggest it cancels all unconsciousness, but that could be my error in interpreting you). This isn’t quite what engineer says it does, and it isn’t the only rule involved. I’ll just post the Engineer rule here to avoid inadvertently leaving out a preposition. So we note a couple things. First, that if you succeed the WIP roll, your target regains a STR point, and if you fail you lose a STR point. Easy enough. And as we both noted from the G:RP rule, losing a structure point from the first level of unconsciousness invokes a replacement effect: instead of the loss of 1 STR while unconscious resulting in the usual dead, you enter a 2nd distinct level of unconscious. I think we’re still in agreement here, and we recognize that the normal effect of the game and the effect indicated in Engineer (lose a structure while unconscious and you go to Dead) is replaced by an effect of G:RP. So if we look at G:RP, we note that this distinct state (noted by an additional marker) is defined as being down another STR point (-2 from 1STR) to get that 2nd distinct level of unconscious. So if you lost two structure points to get there from 1STR, presumably using engineer alone would give you one structure point back (that’s what the rule says it does) and you’d go up one 1STR , canceling one level of unconsciousness (the second distinct one) and leaving you in the first level of unconsciousness. The expected outcome then would be you need 2 successful Engineer WIPs to go from 2nd distinct level of unconsciousness to get back to 1 STR. _This never happens_, though, b/c G:RP has a replacement effect which says instead of regaining 1 point of structure per successful WIP, if you have a BtB Engineer pass a WIP on an unconscious G:RP model, it reverts to 1STR and cancels all levels of unconsciousness. I note all of this b/c of two things: 1) It’s distinct from Engineer canceling unconsciousness as we are now dealing with an effect of G:RP. This rule is written this way for a reason, to my mind, mainly b/c Engineer would do what I describe above without it. and 2) G:RP does not add some number of structure points, it reverts to 1STR and cancels all levels of unconsciousness. Now, some people have argued the G:RP revert clause is the equivalent of regaining one structure point at the first distinct unconscious level, and two structure points at the second distinct level, making analogies to Doctor. This has an intuitive charm (I agree with the values), but I don’t think that’s consistent with the rules written as they are. Others have argued (like you might, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth) that revert is equivalent to gaining 1 STR from Engineer and canceling unconsciousness regardless of unconsciousness levels. I don’t think this reading is correct, given that, in the first case, it’s a replacement effect of G:RP so the fact that Engineer looks like Doctor isn’t terribly relevant and, in the second case, If we’re in the second distinct level of unconsciousness, we’re defined as being down two STR from STR1, and I don’t like the “two steps forward, one step back” math inequality and all it implies for weird resolution problems. Thus, I’m of a mind to say that a rule which says to revert means to revert - a state change from whatever level of unconsciousness back to 1STR. The question which I’m most interested in (and this may just be me - especially after this book chapter) is how a reversion effect interacts with a wound, and I (still) have no clue. Most of the additive approaches are not terribly compelling to me, for reasons I’ve laid out, and because <+X, -Y> is not the same as <-Y, SET TO 1>. Some people have suggested a cancellation approach, which I like a bit better, but what specifically gets cancels and how that occurs are mysterious to me. Others have stated the fact that my rule reading results in a seemingly unsolvable problem makes the reading wrong - I would posit that it’s just as likely that the rule interaction is not address/intended and needs a fix. Which brings us back to your malfunction approach, which I’d be fine with as a way to think of it, but I’m not sure how it gets us any closer to an answer of how to address this consistently. If a G:RP is at Malfunction L1 and takes a wound while being Engineered, is it at Malfunction 1, Malfunction 2, or STR1? Hope that’s more clear on what I’m thinking.
I appreciate your considered response, but check the cancelation clause for the Unconscious State. Regarding troops with the STR Attribute. A trooper with the Special Skill Engineer (or an equivalent Skill) may cancel the Unconscious state by spending one Short Skill of an Order while in base to base contact with the affected trooper and passing a Normal WIP Roll (or the Roll specified by the Special Skill or Scenario that caused the state). The Engineer may spend one Short Skill while in BtB and pass a Normal WIP roll to cancel the Unconscious State. It says the same in the Engineer skill: Alternatively, by passing a Normal WIP Roll, the user may cancel all of the target's states susceptible of being repaired by an Engineer (Burnt, Disabled, Immobilized, Isolated...). When these states are canceled, remove the corresponding Markers. If the target is affected by more than one of these states simultaneously, one single succesful WIP Roll cancels them all. The exception to this rule is the Unconscious state, which requires a separate WIP Roll to cancel, and whose cancellation does not affect other states. So actually, in reading it all through this time, the Engineer does not actually cause the target to "regain" 1 Structure point when canceling the Unconscious state. That is a different use of the skill. All the skill says is that "alternatively" the Engineer may spend one SS in BtB and pass a Normal WIP roll to cancel Unconscious, which is consistent with the cancellation clause of Unconscious. It appears that nowhere in the rules is it explicitly stated that the cancellation of Unconscious gives the target 1 Wound/Structure. I think that is the implication, and it is certainly how the game is played, because being at 0 Wounds/Structure is how you get to the Unconscious state. So it is really, really important in the context of this discussion how and why the Unconscious state is being canceled. I think all of this talk about 'counting' up the Structure gained/lost is missing the point. When the Engineer succeeds its WIP roll, the target's Unconscious state is canceled. What happens if the target fails an AMR roll as part of the same Order? In my humble opinion, the simple answer is that the target's Unconscious state is canceled and the target fails an ARM roll. The target is simultaneously not Unconscious (and presumably at 1 Structure) and loses 1 Structure from the failed ARM roll, making it Unconscious. If the target failed 2 ARM rolls or otherwise took 2 wounds, then the target would still be Unconscious, due to the special Remote Presence rule. The target never 'regained' Structure. The Unconscious state was canceled. And it is only one state, regardless of how many markers are in the stack next to the model.
@MindwormGames the above is excellent. Thank you for the similarly thoughtful response, and the good clarification of the Engineer rules. If the discussions about play by intent and silhouette LoF went like this we’d get somewhere. I think I agree entirely with your Engineer reading, that the gain/loss appears to be a separate roll type than that used to cancel states. This is interesting in that every TO I’ve ever heard rule on Engineer has said it heals and cancels all states, which I think is clearly not what the rule says. Great catch. I question your final analysis of resolution, but I’ll get to that. The problem from my end is that, in the case of an unconscious G:RP STR trooper (at either one or two distinct levels) the resolution of successful WIP roll vis a vis Engineer is a moot point. G:RP takes over if the WIP succeeds (Engineer’s resolution holds if it fails, by the by, and you lose a STR point, and either go dead or more unconscious, accordingly. Engineer resolution also holds _if_ you use it to cancel non-unconscious states, which would be a weird choice, but a thing you could do I guess). The replacement effect is clear though if you pass a WIP: Cancel any levels of unconscious and revert to 1 STR, as stated in G:RP. As we both point out, this doesn’t involve a regain (whether from Engineer or from G:RP). So it’s not something you can add/subtract, or as you put it “counting up” gained/lost structure. So, what about resolution of this particular interaction? You state three conditions to consider during resolution of a order where a Unconscious G:RP trooper fails some number of ARM/BTS rolls: 1) no regain (agree) 2) simultaneous resolution (again, agree) 3) Cancellation of all unconscious (agree with a quibble) So quibble first, and then we can figure out the rest. I’ll note this paragraph doesn’t matter, b/c we’re using G:RP which cancels any levels of unconsciousness and reverts to 1STR. So your outcome is correct, but I think Engineer would have a different resolution in the absence of the G:RP rule. G:RP allows for two distinct unconscious states, and Engineer removes _the_ unconscious state (not all or any number of as used in G:RP), so I would read that as only removing one state distinct instance at a time. You would therefore need two successful WIPs to cancel two distinct unconscious states using Engineer. Again, not terribly important given that successful Engineer WIP resolution is replaced on G:RP troopers, but perhaps 3rd Offensive will introduce a non G:RP structure unit with distinct unconscious levels in the future, and everyone will look back at this conversation, and say, “ah ha!” So I have a G:RP unit at 1st level of Unconsciousness. It has a BtB Engineer pass a WIP, and takes a wound. You postulate that it would end the order at the 1st level unconsciousness. It is equally reasonable to assert it ends at 1STR using this approach. But I think both are wrong, b/c both by necessity assume a non-simultaneous order to the resolution (in your case, it cancels, and then takes a wound, in mine it takes a wound and then cancels any unconsciousness and reverts). At 2nd distinct level of unconsciousness, you see the same problem (is it at 1STR, 1st Unconscious, or Dead?) using this resolution strategy. So what could we do instead? We have a few places where active player gets to determine things (Engage?) but that seems like a sloppy fix, and not one that has much precedent in damage resolution that I know of. Or you could go with some kind of set order I suppose (heal damage, then take damage) but that’s obviously not simultaneous. So I think that some kind of state-based or cancellation-based solution is the better route here. State would say you have to end the turn at 1STR not unconscious, regardless of any wounds taken (wounds don’t imply an end state (although I guess they may require a certain kinds of marker states, like burnt or immobilized), they just can result in one, whereas the G:RP reverts to a specific final state). A lot of people aren’t going to like that, b/c it seems like a get-out-of-jail-free card, but I think this is the simplest/best resolution with the most consistent outcomes. Or you could go with a cancelation approach. But if you do, _what_ cancels? Would a successful WIP cancel just 1 wound, or 2 or 10 wounds? would it cancel only wounds from a single ARO, but not multiple? Would it cancel wounds but not unconscious states? Not sure how to fix it this way as it stands.
Yes, we are going around in circles, because some people are imagining states that literally do not exist in the rules. ;) Unconscious is Unconscious is Unconscious, regardless of the number of markers indicating the state. It is the Unconscious state. This is why one WIP roll will get rid of ‘Unconscious L2’, because this use of the Engineer skill simply cancels the Unconscious state. When a state is canceled, it’s gone. You can’t cancel Unconscious and yet not cancel Unconscious.
Sure but (unless you cancel successes as @Mahtamori has it, which is incompatible with your interpretation) you can go into the second level of Unconcious before having the state cancelled. So you're applying an order of operations that says 'first cancel the state and then apply damage'. There's no reason why you can't apply damage second or just let one player or the other determine order. Whereas the other position is "sum the damage and the benefits of cancelling the state, determine final damage", the issue with this approach is that the benefits of cancelling the Unconscious state are variable. The reason for accepting this approach is it's the approach that is usually used. Aside: @ijw answered this question in 2015. Sum the results and apply only 1STR was the outcome. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/34474-unconscious-gremote-timing/
Yeah... my position on this matches yours outside of a hypothetical that will never happen, but sure, that's why we are going in circles... A great justification, heh. So, by that @ijw logic, a 2nd distinct level of unconsciousness takes one wound and dies, correct? Just trying to get it clear.
If we're being picky, one WIP Roll gets rid of the second level of Unconscious because the Remote Presence rule says so, not because of anything in the Engineer rule. Troopers with G: Remote Presence need only an Engineer in base to base contact to pass a singleWIP Roll in order to recover from either level of Unconsciousness and revert back to STR 1.
Typing too fast on my phone - takes 2 wounds with a successful engineer WIP @ 2nd distinct level of unconsciousness
So, the rule can be simplified to "take the worst possible outcome for the active player." Fair enough.
