I think the critical question is whether in this case RP adds a number or if it results in a replacement of engineer with a state change. If RP is read as modifying engineer such that under certain circumstances we add +1 to the amount regained, then we need to understand when the +1 fires; @Cartographer suggested a reasonable reading of it firing based on the state on the trooper at declaration of the skill. I and others have pointed out that results in some very unintuitive outcomes, and suggested alternative calculations based on a linear scale to avoid weird outcomes. But if it is a replacement of engineer effect with RP rules as a state change, as indicated by the RP rule text of "revert to 1 STR", then I don't see how they can resolve without some kind of cancellation. If the math is "take five damage and set the final value to 1 STR simultaneously" then I think it either has to cancel, or the "revert" effect happens because it is more determinate.
I can only see one un-intuitive outcome, Unc-2, engineer vs. 1 damage, which still results in Unc-1. All other situations work perfectly fine to my mind: Unc-1, engineer vs. 1 damage = Unc-1 Unc-1, engineer vs. 2 damage = Unc-2 Unc-1, engineer vs. 3 damage = Dead Unc-2, engineer vs. 1 damage = Unc-1 Unc-2, engineer vs. 2 damage = Unc-2 Unc-2, engineer vs. 3 damage = Dead Now you can complain about Unc-1/2 vs 3 damage all you like, but you're still taking 3 damage on a 1S trooper, enough to take them straight to dead at full health even with G:RP, and you're not starting at full health. For units with >1S it's irrelevant as you can't (essentially) repair 2 damage with a single Engineer roll unless they're Unc.
I would argue that a unit at Unc-1 taking the same damage as one at Unc-2 and resolving to the same end value is a bit unintuitive. Critically, that might be _correct_ and I certainly understand how you get there, but it's not obvious. Two issues: 1. If things are resolving at the same time, then it is taking damage as the engineering regain is occurring. So if at any point in that process the G: RP unit is at UNC-2 (would take damage that would put it into an UNC-2 state) then it seems reasonable to suggest (reasonable, mind you, not necessarily correct) that the UNC-2 benefits of reverting to STR1 should also be present as long as at some point during the order the unit can be considered to be at UNC-2. This creates a problem, b/c the path you suggest (define the amount healed at the start) implies an order to how things resolve: A. determine how much engineering regain is to be applied, then B. determine the amount of damage taken from that point. This is important, b/c the opposite order would clearly give different results (A. determine how much damage, and then B. revert to STR 1 if the unit is unconscious), and _neither_ of these are simultaneous. 2. This also assumes the the "revert to STR1" rule present in G: RP has any relationship with damage taking or structure regaining. GOTO 1 does not suggest an add/subtract resolution. If it replaces the regain effect from Engineer as long as the unit is UNC at some point in the order, then I don't see a clear way to resolve it.
Remember you apply the effects of successful rolls at the same time as making armour/BTS rolls (step 8), you've already determined what the Engineer skill does before you determine how much damage the unit has sustained.
Agreed. Insofar as your G:RP unit has at least 1 STR, then engineer results in regaining 1 structure. I think that's probably right. But when it is at _either_ level of unconscious, the G:RP replacement rule for Engineer comes into effect. The rule reads, "Troopers with G: RP need only an Engineer in BtB contact to pass a single WIP roll to recover from either level of Unconsciousness and revert back to STR1." So, what happens? How do you square "revert to STR1" with "lose X wounds worth of structure due to damage?" Your position is either: 1) engineering on UNC-1 regains one wound worth of structure, and UNC-2 is two worth, so just sum that value with the damage value, or it might be (with the equivalent outcome but logically distinct) 2) set the trooper's structure to STR1, and subtract the damage. And while one of those two might be right, they are 1) not what the rule says (it says nothing about "how much" regain is afforded at a given UNC level b/c it says either level results in reverting to STR1 - it implies an end point not how far it takes to get there), and 2) assumes an order of operations (set unit to STR1 and _then_ subtract damage, which has problems because if I assume the opposite order, the unit is either dead or at STR1 depending on the amount of damage taken and the starting UNC level. I think that's obviously not right given the simultaneous resolutions). Critically, "revert back to STR1" does not imply a value of STR regained so much as a state change from UNC to STR1. Start the order UNC, end the order STR1. That's it, nothing about how long it takes to get there, or how many wounds of STR are healed, just: if you start in this state, end in that one. The game has lots of state changes like this that trigger on events or actions, so there is precedent for that reading, and if that's correct here then I don't know how that interacts with wounds to be taken. "Subtract X wounds, but it resolves to STR1" is a weird idea, but it strikes me as the most literal reading of the how these rules would interact. So, the Engineer is hammering away, and blows up in a huge explosion that engulfs them both, and out of the fireball comes a working Remote ready for vengeance is a reasonable interpretation for what happens here (and it's way more cinematic, heh). But, I agree it's a weird outcome RAW, which means we should be talking about how CB could modify the rule to function as intended. I like @inane.imp 's calculator pretty well, and as an alternative I'm happy to propose the following rewrite of the G: RP rule: "Troopers with G: RP at UNC-2 at the start of the order regain +1 STR when an Engineer in BtB contact passes a single WIP roll." edit: typos
You need to read the order expenditure sequence: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence Before you roll for ARM/BTS you have already determined what the Engineer roll does. Engineer roll is at step 7, ARM/BTS roll is at step 8.
I don't see how that's inconsistent with my statement. If the trooper is unconscious at either level, it reverts them to STR1 during Effects.
So you have a situation where on the one hand damage and healing/repair partially sum and/or cancel out when successfully executed within the same time frame, or a situation where healing/repair completely negates all damage sustained within that same time frame and you're having trouble figuring out which to apply?
We both play a game with symbiomates. Look, we could probably list rules that don't work as expected for days, the fact that something seems more reasonable doesn't make it correct. The rule says what it says. I think your version is a legitimate interpretation of it, but there are others. They all end up with weird outcomes on the edges. I don't know that one is obviously more weird than the others. I am happy to see the rule clarified, and suggested a clarification that is entirely consistent with what you want to have happen, with the notable improvement that it would actually be what the rule said.
It's fundamentally a question of "do we interpret the rules in a way that benefits the active Trooper the most or the reactive"? This isn't really a rules question, but a gameplay one. Given that the Engineer/Servant will have eaten a Template on Normal rolls for this even to be a thing, I think choosing an option that preferences the active model is best. I then prefer an approach that benefits less damaged Troopers more than more damaged Troopers.
I’m trying to remember back two forums to try to remember if Gutier (is that his name?) ever suggested letting players choose the order in which things happened. I’m pretty sure he went more towards bending things into face-to-face rolls. And if you’re looking at it from a gameplay perspective, then two inherently cross-purposed events attempting to happen at the same time is at least a reasonable extension of the “face to face” mechanism. So that puts you at success cancels success, and the fiddle details of what each success would have done don’t matter. You succeed on a dodge, no one cares that you just dodged DA or T2 ammo. Likewise, if you get hit while being repaired, why should it matter what the repair would have been?
This approach amuses me; opposing engineer/doctor roll with shooting not even on the doctor, but on that which is being doctored... That's what these forums are for, after all.
There is no “Unconscious L2” state. There is only Unconscious. A Remote Presence model that is Unconscious can take a wound and still be Unconscious. But the state itself does not change in any way. An Engineer never ‘heals’ more than 1 Structure. The Engineer gives the unit 1 Structure, which cancels the Unconscious state.
Engineer still doesn't repair more than 1 point of STR. Edit: re-reading the rule, Engineer doesn't actually repair any points of STR at all. When used on Unconscious trooper it clears the unconscious state. This is not the same as repairing structure and is noted as a separate exception to clearing Immobilized, Isolated, etc.
Yes. Do you do that before, after or while you apply damage? That's the RAW question. The answers about 'repairing 1 or 2 STR' have been attempts to answer that question in a consistent way through liberal interpretation of the rules (IE we were making shit up). The alternative answer that is consistent is one of: Active player decides or Reactive player decides. Because ATM the answer is "TO decides".
Again, there is no "before" and there is no "after" in Infinity resolution. The only consistent answer would be that one successful Engineer attempt cancels (or is cancelled by) one successful damage. The only edge case I can think of is T2 ammo where I am less certain if T2 ammo would count as one or two successes for this purpose. Meanwhile, Monofilament doesn't care since this doesn't interact with damage at all.
That's not consistent with behaviour across orders. Compare: Order 1: Take 2 Dam; Order 2: Repair; Order 3: take 2 Dam. And Order 1: Take 2 Dam; Order 2: Repair + Take 2 Dam The same actions have taken place, only the timing has changed. 'Cancel a single success' introduces that timing, by (effectively) always applying the Engineering success at Unconscious level One. Engineering is peculiar in that it sometimes cancels 2 successes. Effectively 'where possible apply Repair at Unconscious level One' inherently benefits the reactive player.
