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Ends on Retreat

Discussion in 'ITS' started by QueensGambit, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    The rules about ends on retreat do not states

    "enters retreat at the start of a turn" It states "Starts a turn in retreat"

    And a Game Round is divided into two Player Turns. There is no space in between the turns where you have not started one turn or the other. The turns start at a fixed point in time i.e. after the previous turns End of Turn phase.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The fixed point of time when the turn starts is the Tactical phase. You're creating a point in the game sequence which does not exist.

    You can't start a turn without going through the Tactical phase because the Tactical phase is the start of the turn.

    It's impossible to be in Retreat between the turn starting and the Tactical phase because they're the same thing.

    It's like trying to sit between the Queen of England and Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor at a table, you can't, because they're the same.
     
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  3. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Retreat is a game state, you can be in it for multiple rounds in a normal game and even leave it in a later round. As a game state you can start the turn before any checks in that state (which is what the "ends in retreat" rule references).

    Lets use another weird example to demonstrate how the retreat as a state is set during a turn and can be changed during that same turn but that change does not take effect until you have already started your next turn.

    1.My 300 point list has a Maruts and 1 Dakini left in it, so I am obviously above retreat, and I end my turn.
    2.On my opponents turn they posses my Maruts and then pass the turn.
    3. I start my next turn not in the retreat state (as I was not in the retreat state during the check retreat stage of my last tactical phase)
    3a. I spend 1 command token to remove the possession state from my Maruts, this state is not canceled until right before the Order count stage of the tactical phase.
    3b. because of the above during 1.1 Retreat! check I am in retreat as I only have a Dakini left alive (as possessed troopers count as casualties)
    3c. My Marut returns to my possesion prior to the count order step
    3d. I count my 2 orders proceed to pass the turn (for simplicity)
    4.My opponent decides to pass the turn as well
    5.I start this turn in the retreat state (as I was found to be in the retreat step during the last turn)
    5a. I do a point count and find I am no longer in the retreat state as I have my Maruts back and my army state is not longer in retreat.
    6+game continues as normal

    Think of it this way, if you were to change your name from Bob to Bill the only way for you to have started the day as Bill is to have changed it yesterday. It does not matter how soon on this day that you change it once this day has begun you have started this day as Bob. In this way it does not matter that the first step during you turn is to determine that you are in retreat, the turn has already begun and as such you did not start the turn in that state.
     
  4. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Thats not really how the game logic works though. The structure would be like this:
    • Opponent Ends their Turn. With your Marut Possessed and the Dakini left non-null state.
    1. Start Your Turn (Tactical Phase)
      1. Retreat Check
        1. Oh Hey I probably dont want to be in Retreat, let me just Command Token back control of that Marut.
        2. Tally Points and check for Retreat
        3. Oh look I'm not in Retreat
      2. Loss of Lieutenant Check
        1. That Shukra was my LT so I am now in LOL.
      3. Order Count
    2. Impetuous Phase
    3. Order Phase
    4. End of Turn
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Sequence


    This is a great example, except what you're describing isn't the structure of Infinity. A more accurate way to look at it would be like this:
    • Your life is a game.
    • Each year is a Round.
    • Each Round is then broken down into Months, each month is a Turn.
    • Each Month is then broken down into weeks, each week is a step (phase).
    • Each Week is then broken down into Days, each Day is check. (or in the case of the Impetuous/Order Phase this would be order expenditure) .
    See how there can be many days in a week? In Infinity there are many checks that happen during the start of the turn. Checking for Retreat and dealing with it just happens to be Monday.

    What you're doing is making up an imaginary point in time and assigning game status and value to it that it doesn't have. The game has a very clearly defined Start of Turn. We've showed it to you a number of times. To try and claim any other point in time is the start of the turn is frankly cheating (though admittedly it sounds unintentional).
     
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  5. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    That would be nice except that is not how it works

    Q: If you use a Command Token to cancel the Possessed state of a TAG, when during the Tactical Phase is the Possessed state cancelled?
    A: Before the Order count.

    Order count is the 3rd step and it does not say that it leaves that state in a preceding step. I will agree it has a bit pf wiggle room and since this is not the direct discussion of this thread I will leave it here.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Possessed

    Breaking the "turn/round" into smaller parts does not change the fact that you can not start a month (i.e. a turn) as Bill unless you changed your name (changed states from normal to retreat) during the previous month (turn) and since the only time you can change your name (enter retreat) is during the first week (phase) of a month (turn)

    If you have already reached the first day of the first week of a month you have already started that day/week/month/year and if a check ask did you start that day/week/month/year as something you can not now change that something and claim you started as it
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    You're making up rules again.

    The Marut can be unposessed before the the order count, it does not have to be immediately before.

    So you can un-possess it before the Retreat check, because that also fulfils "before the order count".
     
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  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    We can because the Month has a full week that is its start. During the first week of that month we change our name and that paper work goes through and we then have to go and check our bills/make sure everything up to date, etc. Its still the start of the month as defined by 'the law' (the rules).


    I've tried to be polite and accommodating. But it is clear we are not coming to a conclusion. I will leave you a brief summary of the difference in our understandings.

    You are looking at Infinity and attempting to apply commonly held societal rules/standards about what "Start the turn" means. (IE: It is a fixed instantaneous point that occurs and then is over.)

    Infinity however has a very specifically defined Start of the Turn. This is the entirety of the tactical phase. So long as anything happens in the tactical phase it is happening 'at the start of the turn'.

    You'll also note that the Retreat wording has been mildly updated to make this more clear.

     
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  8. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Lets look at the other end of the turn the "End of the Turn" phase. Once you have entered that phase your turn is not over. You are still in your turn and it only ends once you have done everything in that phase and only "Then, the Turn ends."

    Your current interpretation of the "Start of the Turn: Tactical Phase" is that stuff which happens during it is not part of the turn, but much like the above "End of the Turn" phase everything that happens in it does not happen outside the turn.

    If the tactical stuff happened outside the turn you would have similar text to the end of turn i.e. "Then, the Turn starts." after you count the orders. This is not the case because the turn has explicitly started by the previous one having ended.

    edit:
    also as a side note the "Retreat! situation" wording is a result of sloppy translation, you can compare the English wiki page and the Spanish page and see that on the English page it is a "Retreat! State" while on the Spanish it is a "withdrawal situation" So it is not referring to a vague "situation" but a specific in game "state"
     
    #108 crazedloon, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  9. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    So instead all weapons/abilities that are removed "At the end of the turn" are actually removed prior to the end of the turn?

    I think you just proved the whole premise that the Tactical Phase = The Start of the Turn even further.
     
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  10. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    I am not saying that the Tactical Phase =/= The Start of the Turn

    I am saying to "start the turn" with something/in something it must already be the case prior to the turn starting. Essentially if the intent was to say that if you entered retreat the game ends the wording would simply be that

    "If one of the player is in a Retreat! situation, the game will end at the end of that Turn."

    There would be no need for "start the turn"
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @crazedloon You're technically right, but the Infinity rules were unfortunately not written with that level of precision in mind.
     
  12. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    I understand there are some rules with wiggle room and/or room for interpretation, and often these are the rules which get FAQs or even outright re writes to reduce that room for interpretation. But by the nature of there being faqs and rewrites the intent of the rules designers seems to be to make it precise.

    By convention in this game (and every other game system out there) players play by the technically right reading of the rules, RAW, otherwise you are playing a different game each time a rule is "interpreted" another way. In this case it appears that a lot of players have agreed on a incorrect reading (i.e. no the RAW / technically right) of the same rule and it has become a common place "house rule".

    The issue therefore is that either the rules need to be rewritten to reflect that common interpretation or the game needs to be played as written. Either way the rules should be played as written because a new player who does not view the forums or play extensively in events should not be surprised/confused when he plays at his first event and finds that people are playing with "house rules."
     
  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Please do continue to tell us how there is only one way to read English. I look forward to the PhD thesis you've no doubt written on the topic to talk with such authority.

    Less sarcastically; "technically right" is up there with the use of "objective understanding". Written language is notoriously fluid and difficult to only have one possible meaning. You won't get much traction wading into a discussion declaring your reading as the one true reading.
     
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  14. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Well arguably that is what a rules discussion is by definition. If 1 person (or group) is correct and the other is not then the one with the "correct" reading as the "one true reading." Essentially when discussing rules with wiggle room players are trying to determine what the "one possible meaning" the rules writers intended. You can not have a rule system without "one possible meaning" for every rule otherwise you would not be able to determine how a rule works in a given situation.

    Since you believe my reading of the rule is wrong, then an argument against that reading or for your own interpretation of the rule would be more productive than an attack on me.
     
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The other posters have already covered the ground. I think it's safe to say you're not here to be convinced, but to do the convincing.

    The game consistently refers to the tactical phase as "the beginning of your turn" and the order phase as "during your turn".
    Entering retreat during the tactical phase is considered to be entering retreat at the beginning of your turn.

    The game Currently doesn't refer to discrete points in time when calling things into action. Something either happens before something else or after it.
    This might not gel well with the school of technical writing you're from and definitely gets the rules writers in trouble on occasion.

    It's probably worth re-wording the ITS ends in retreat phrasing to match the actual rules. Ie. If the active player enters the retreat! State. The game will end at the end of that player turn.

    But it's a quality of life change, which drop way down the priority list, we all wish we had more time, but we don't.
     
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