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Ends on Retreat

Discussion in 'ITS' started by QueensGambit, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ah, so if too many reasons for Retreat to be bad are found, you cry foul too? What kind of argumentation is allowed?
     
    chromedog likes this.
  2. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    I agree. This explanation is far more in-line with CB historically. When we see errors such as: 1) Decapitation having different rules depending on language translation in season X, 2) an employee making a rules call during an interview only for it to be contradicted by an errata/FAQ, 3) shock ammunition changed so it affects 2W models, only to be reverted).

    Whenever these kinds of things happen, the community tries to find some deeper justification for the ruling we all have to play with, in terms of how the game is meant to be played--only for us all to find out later that it was a simple human error.

    Thinking about it, I believe there may be a good reason to KEEP retreat after all. It may well be true that a lot of missions actually force TOO much focus on consoles/area control and not enough player interaction, so much that we need to give a helping hand to a player wanting to inflict damage and win on attrition. Ironically, even the EoR ITS mechanic helps a player finishing out a win even on button pressing missions, in a lot of cases. This is especially true when the defending player has run out of command tokens as they consolidate order groups after taking mass casualties.

    Ultimately though, retreat in general has been demonstrated as unnecessary. The solution is: better mission design (something we definitely didn't get in ITS 11) and other mechanics such as the large saturation zone (although this is too much going in the other direction).
     
    Andre82 likes this.
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I agree with you that QC having retreat end the game early is very awkward and doesn’t feel like great mission design.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd throw that in there for all of the "score at the end of round" missions (Transmission Matrix, for example).

    Actually for any zone control mission, it doesn't seem right, since while they don't have killing as on objective, they functionally do, because putting your own dudes in zones or blowing your opponent's dudes in zones up should be approximately equivalent.
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    in those, killing the enemy gives you advantage (dead dudes cannot contest) and the point cost is important (that is also directly related to retreat), so is really hard for a massacred side to do a comeback in one turn and steal the opponent enough zones to win, unless that opponent had not controlled them in the beggining

    you talked in the other thread about rejecting other opinions due to experience. Well, all of my coments come from it too, and playing this game before the retreat-ends-the-game was a thing, and this edition is more punishing to the retreating one than the previous one (now the retreated have less orders remaining)
     
  6. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Seems to me that there are 2 main arguments against ends in retreat
    1.I plan my list for 3 turns
    2.Once I put an opponent in retreat I should still get a turn to activate objectives.

    Seems to me these two things boil down to interpretation of the rules as written specifically

    "If one of the players starts his Active Turn in a Retreat! situation, the game will end at the end of that Turn."

    Seems to me that with this being the end condition you only have to worry about a shorter game if you put your opponent in retreat on turn 1, and no matter when you do that as the "winning" player you will get 1 more full turn before the game ends. The reason for that is that you have to start your turn in "Retreat!" not have only <25% of your models on the table at the start of your turn. On the first turn where you will be effected by retreat you start the turn not in retreat and not until the first step of that turn do you calculate the points and find out your are in retreat, thus the first turn you start in retreat will be on the following turn.

    Thus the player being put into retreat will be playing 2 "full" turns in the retreat state before the game ends, 1 where they start not in retreat and the second where they start in retreat. Thus the active player will always have their turn which is between those turns.

    So if you want to make the first argument "I plan my list for 3 turns" then don't put your opponent into retreat on turn 1.
    If you want to make the second argument there is none as you always have 1 more turn after you put your opponent into retreat.
     
  7. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Well that is a interesting interpretation of the rules, don't think that's how it works however.
     
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  8. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    That's a very... spurious reading of the rules , but it does match the username!
     
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  9. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    Why would you say it is spurious or not how it works?

    I am no Spanish expert but looking at the Spanish wording of the same rule it simply states "If a player starts his turn in Withdrawal !!!" which helps clarify/remove the extra words in the English version (i.e. the "Retreat! situation"). Retreat! is a defined state of the game, an army is either in it or not in it, and the time in which you gain that state is specifically defined as after the turn has started. Thus you start a turn not in retreat and then go into retreat.

    This is also important for instance in normal game play beyond just this rule. If I am at 76 points for instance (so above retreat) in my active turn and then lose a model I do not suddenly suffer the effects of retreat. My models continue to get full normal aros (i.e. not limited to short Movement Skills, Cautious Movement, Change Facing, Dodge or Reset) and act normally until the end of the turn all the way up until my turn begins and I get to the first step of the turn in which I count points and am under the threshold and which point all models will have retreat markers added as needed.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Because Retreat is checked during the first step of the Start of Turn Phase.

    This is where your reading is incorrect, checking for Retreat does not happen after the start of your turn, but as part of starting your turn.
     
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  11. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    It is not done during the "start of turn phase" it is done during the Tactical Phase

    "In game terms, each player must, at the beginning of their Active Turn, during the Tactical Phase, "

    Further if you you wish to use the misnomer of "Start of Turn Phase" that does not change the triggering keywords from the mission which is

    "If one of the players starts his Active Turn"

    You have not started your active turn in Retreat!!! you have finished the first step in the "Start of Turn Phase" in retreat.
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The Start of the Turn is the Tactical phase:

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Start_of_the_Turn:_Tactical_Phase
     
  13. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    I understand that it is titled that way in the wiki but that has a nothing to do with if a turn has started or not.

    Lets use a bad example of game play and you tell me if your interpretation of when a turn starts still makes sense.

    I am playing a bad list where I "bluff" a larger list than I actually have so I have a group of 6 models and a group of 4 but my list is only 10 models and I intend to smash the two groups together turn 1 with my command tokens.

    My opponent is on to my games and doesn't believe there are 4 hidden troops in group 1. So during my tactical phase he spends 1 command token to "Prevent the adversary from using more than one single Command Token during that first Turn."

    so either the the turn has not started and as such the Strategic Use of command tokens will not prevent this arguably bad game plan
    or the turn has started and I am limited to moving only 1 model over to my primary group.
     
  14. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    The Wiki is the rules. Its not two separate resources. In the same way that Army Builder over rules the rulebooks when it comes to this game.

    You wouldn't be able to move the models over simple as that. Both events are happening in the Tactical Phase and both have to happen prior to order generation. I'm not sure I see what you're trying to prove?

    In a very similar way you can choose to put your Lieutenant in Hidden Deployment or Airborn Deployment and you end up in loss of lieutenant for your first game turn.


    Edit: In case you dont believe my first point. I thought I would go back and check the physical rulebook. Please see below, highlight mine:

    upload_2019-10-8_16-11-26.png
     
  15. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    The point is that once you are in the Tactical Phase the turn has already started and as such all rules which effect a turn have already started/taken effect. In the case of retreat you were not in retreat prior to the turn and as such did not "start the turn in retreat" you have been placed into retreat during the turn and as such the first turn you start in retreat will be the following turn.
     
  16. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I understand what you're trying to say but you're missing sort of the integral concept here. The Tactical Phase is the start of your turn. They are inextricably and quite explicitly the same thing. To start your turn is to perform the Tactical Phase in the same way that The Start of the Turn is a defined period of time in say Magic The Gathering.
     
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  17. crazedloon

    crazedloon New Member

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    I am not arguing that the tactical phase is not the start of your turn, I am arguing by definition as the first step of your turn you can not gain a state during that phase and also claim that you started that phase in that state.

    Either
    the tactical phase is part of the turn (as indicated by the use of command tokens) and as such to start your turn (i.e. the entire thing not a phase of it) in a state you need to be in that state before the tactical phase

    or

    the tactical phase in not part of the turn and thus you can gain the retreat state during it and thus start your turn in retreat without ever having been in it for a previous turn.
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's neither.

    The Tactical phase is the start of the turn. They are synonymous.

    Therefore if you are in Retreat during the Tactical phase you are in Retreat at the start of the turn.

    So if you are in Retreat in the Tactical phase then the game ends at the conclusion of that turn.

    For your interpretation to be correct or would need to say in Retreat before the Tactical Phase/Start of the turn
     
    #98 colbrook, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  19. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    What Colbrook said. You're looking at it and saying "My Turn starts at the following fixed point in time and then I'm into it." But thats not how this game works. The Start of your turn is the entirety of your Tactical phase. So when you start your tactical phase and check if you're in retreat thats the start of the turn. As is the point where you check if you're in Loss of Lieutenant, as if the point where you generate your orders. Its all part of the start of your turn.
     
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  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    just remember that the spanish version says that retreat is when one is below 75% of its total list points, not the intended list points. If you bring a 60 points list to a 300 points game, you will go retreat when below 15 points.