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Ends on Retreat

Discussion in 'ITS' started by QueensGambit, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Thanks mate, I thought it was a really well done post and you've quite eloquently highlighted a lot of the issues and explored some good concepts on ways missions could be designed such that EoR would not be necessary.

    I think scoring throughout the game is a good way to encourage this. Vaulsc has come up with a mission which uses a "scoring window" called tactical window which is another way to approach this.
    Tactical window only allows scoring for the mid-turns. So player 1 can't score on their turn 1 and player 2 can't score on their last turn. It also incorporates some additional score elements to encourage movement (a high scoring console which is in the opponents half of the table).

    Obligatory "you're wrong" to people have mostly ignoned Queensgambit's intiial points and just screeched their viewpoint again.
     
  2. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    @Alphz I thought you were originally in the 'keep retreat great' camp, only to have moved out of it more recently. Back again?

    It's easy to demonstrate why EoR should never have been a thing. I feel another YT rant building up...
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Eh, maybe. Scorched earth is not a good idea when you want the resources there, however.

    The only place it might be reasonably viable is on Paradiso, to contain the Combined Army. Otherwise, you are damaging a facility you are trying to either keep or to acquire.
     
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  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I've always acknowledged the mechanic isn't great. But what it tries to achieve is a necessary evil. So mission design which emphasises this idea is great. Just removing it entirely is stupid.

    I'd love for you to demonstrate why it should never be a thing without using the core assumption that killing is always the main goal of a mission.
     
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  5. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    Same. I better do precisely that!

    Before I go prepare a big YT talk, let's quickly go on a slight tangent. Imagine that every ITS mission had a rating on the killing vs non-killing objectives spectrum. If there was a mission where you get max OP for killing more than your opponent and there are no other mechanics, that would be rated a 1. If there was a mission where the special rules actually don't let you shoot or fight in close combat or attack enemy models in any way, but you have to race to score a lot of points in other ways, that would be a 10. A nice blend of both would be a 5 (something most of us would like).

    I observe that most current ITS missions are actually closer to a 10 than a 1 right now, regardless of whether EoR was in the game or not. Look at the strategies people use for supplies, rescue, comms centre, powerpack, acquisition, hunting party, highly classified..... the list just goes on and on. And given the various ways you can stop your opponent from gutting your order pool (mines, jammers, perimeter weapons, HD, marker state, symbiomates, etc), the best way to win these is usually to control the board a bit and just have a more efficient and momentous bid for the points. Of course it is a great strategy to eliminate your opponents orders and tools. But once you take them below half army strength that is usually enough to cripple someone and coast to victory. EoR never deters anybody.

    ----------
    p.s there is a rules mechanic that deters a strategy committed to killing. It's called 'saturation zone' (LOL)
     
    #25 Vaulsc, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    Retreat is one of the best rules in the game and a great test of individual skill.
    People like to talk how Infinity is a very skill intensive game - well, whats the better test of skill than a rule that straight up forces you to stop hunting every single 8point bot on the table and go do objectives finally.
    If you bother to learn enemy armies, army costs of units, keep track of them, dont tilt into shooty bloodrage and dont take the bait you can easily avoid the feelbads of losing due to retreat.
    And anyway plenty of missions dont end in retreat at the moment.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think that memorizing the costs of units should be a meaningful help in the game; it's really unfun.
     
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  8. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    Considering nearly all armies have comparable units within a 4-5 point margin of error, I feel like the above statement is hyperbole. One does not have to memorize the point costs of another's army in order to be able to make a rough estimate of how many points they have left on the table, and if they do not want to put the opponent in retreat then they should probably pump the breaks a bit and focus on the mission objectives that do not rely on killing the enemy or spend their orders setting up for the enemy turn.

    I think the retreat rules in ITS are fine, and help to shift a players focus as they are intended.
     
  9. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Retreat mechanic and by extension missions that end on retreat to me are an element that defines this game compared to other minis games. removing it would be like removing face to face rolls or wip checks to determine initiative. it has a lot of intrinsic value that adds a lot to the game and simply removing it would be a disservice. It's tactical and requires foresight. I find a lot of people that have an issue with it had a NPE with it at some point and feel cheated
     
    #29 MikeTheScrivener, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Mmm, but armies don't go into retreat based on rough estimates - they do so when they drop below 25% of the force strength.
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Impossible. No one ever uses hyperbole on the Internet.
     
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  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Yes but a risk - reward system is not only an interesting mechanic but it's also fun.
     
  13. saint

    saint Charming, but irrational

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    I've had a couple of opponents that did that, (only time I've been on the receiving end of a TAG rush) It was honestly somewhat impressive. the game itself was somewhat demoralizing but in a similar position i'm not certain i could have shown the restraint he did.

    While i know this isn't everyone's cup of tea let me bring up the big kid on the block, 40K. GW's done a lot this edition in an attempt to make the game a better play experience, some has worked some hasn't. one of the biggest things (and well received so far as i'm aware) is that playing to the objectives finally matters. Gone are the days when the score could be 20-2 and the opponent with 2 win simply because they focused on the slaughter and wiped out the adversary. As said by the Great Wolf Leman Russ himself (borrowed from some real figure no doubt):
    "You strive for victory. That is obvious. What may be less obvious is the nature of victory. There are circumstances in which you can destroy the enemy utterly, without loss to your own forces, and yet the victory may be his. In all situations, you must first decide on the nature of victory, and then take steps to secure it. Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." (Meditations, Book VI)
    The nature of victory is rarely in the utter annihilation of the foe, and overall games are better for it should they take that into account.
     
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And not necessarily being able to calculate it to the exact point is part of the fun!
     
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  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yep following on the 1-10 score.

    I think the trend is continuing towards 10 yes. But in the end you conclude EoR never deters anybody, but I don't get to the conclusion you have. How is controlling the board different to just killing your opponent, yes there are more ways for opponents to prevent it, but if controlling the board is the road to victory, than killing your opponent is only a natural progression, this issue is only further reinforced by missions which can be won by a single push at the end of the game, not lessened by it.
     
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  16. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    The only time I ever consider the retreat rule is when I am playing a newish player and I am not done farming him for points.
    The only time I see retreat really have a effect on the game is when someone screws up the rules and cheats another player.

    I do not believe removing the retreat rules would effect the game in any meaningful way. I don't have a way of proving my argument correct or the oppositions argument wrong without data.
     
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  17. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Because you need to score points and are still limited by the 3 rounds. I have won a significant number of games because my opponent got tunnel vision killing my models as opposed to playing the mission. You don't win most games of infinity by killing all the troops, not because of the retreat rule but because of limited orders that need to be split between smashing your opponent and farming points...
    You very often can't do both and getting 10 points tends to be more important.
     
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  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Have you just missed the repeated statements where people who played infinity pre-retreat said games boiled down to shoot first objective second.

    You don't have to. Most missions boil down to last turn objective grabs, so with no risk of retreat I can't see any feasible reason anyone wouldn't want to spend 2 whole turns trying to smash face if it was a non-negligible chance of having a whole free turn.

    Retreat doesn't have to activate to influence player behavior. The risk being there is enough.

    Which is why I argue there needs to be something. If it's drastically different mission design or more skills and equipment that's fine. But just removing retreat is categorically a failed experiment.
    You hypothesising what might happen is a moot point.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  19. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    No, but to be blunt I kinda suspect the game still mostly comes down to mostly board control. I know in my last game vs 012 my strategy was to kill my opponents specialists and protect my own by also killing his assault troops. When I did kill his last specialist he simply called the game.


    If I can kill your full army in 2 rounds and have a full 3rd round to farm points... your probably going to lose anyway.

    Sure... sometimes I even remember it exists as a rule when I have crushed the new player I am farming for points before going back to ignoring it. Last time retreat effected my gameplay was tagline when my oponent ran his orc into my aro fire and then declared he was in retreat at the end of his turn so the game was over and he won....

    From my point of view it has almost zero meaningful effect on games except when someone screws up the rules and cheats, so yah kind of a moot point lol.

    Maybe I am wrong... don't think I am, I think it is mostly a nonissue so me being wrong only effects me anyway.
     
  20. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    There are mission that needs the reatreat rules.
    What I would like to see more missions that don't need the crutch of retreat to encourage playing the objective.
    What I think would be fun is more missions that change the battle field, for example the field is split in 6 zones (2dz and the area between dz in 4) and the player that switches the console can decide which of the zones is a hostile environment or saturation zone.
    The objective is a mountable Hyper Rapid Magnetic Canon, who controls it at the end of a round gets victory points. It can't be moved from the position and only certain troopers can mount it (Veterans? Specialists? etc)
    Or there are some automatic defense turrets that get controlled by consoles they provide aro if triggered to your side burst 3 supp fire with its own LOF etc