[EN] TopWanted JSA reesculpts

Well ninja aren't HI with two CC weapons. But yeahh they aren't straight forward but somewhat flexible.

Also, you are refering to Yu Jing i think the shikami are mainly for JSA use as we have little when it come to mobile HI specialist..

 

Why would we want a HI specialist who starts in our DZ when we can get halfway up the map completely hidden for free and be in marker state?

The Shikami's whole profile feels like a contradiction to me. He's a midfield CC specialist with close range weapons but without gap closing abilities or infiltration. I think we need to reconcile this in one of a few ways:

1) Give him a MULTI Sniper and increase his BS so he can be a real sniper. I would pay 60-70 points for a Shikami with BS14 and a Sniper. His mobility skills would help him get onto interesting sniper perches, and at least then we could say YJ has one good sniper instead of zero.

2) Give him Infiltration (and possibly a midfield weapon like a Spitfire) so he can be a real mid-field specialist. This could make him an interesting alternative to the Dao Fei -- ODD instead of Camo means he can't be in marker state but he's still a pain to shoot at, and he has worse BS/ARM in exchange for CC prowess (I just realized for the first time how bad the Dao Fei is at CC -- that's pretty surprising, actually.)

3) Give him an HMG or Missile Launcher so that JSA has an interesting heavy weapon platform. ODD makes up for his low BS and gives him a weakness, and he can still take advantage of his mobility skills as he could with a Sniper.

JSA units in general are all good at one thing in addition to CC and delivering themselves into CC (and some are really only good at that.) Ninjas are cheap infiltrating specialists who are good at CC. Oniwaban are good at killing things within 8 inches and CC. Domaru are good at killing things close to them and CC. Haramaki are good at being cheap link fillers and CC. Keisotsu are good at... being cheap (and CC for line troops, I guess, iirc they're the only line troop for under 10 points with CC14.)

The Shikami just isn't. He's going to spend 4 orders (at least) to get into a position a similarly costed Oniwaban character has an 80% chance of starting in, or 2 orders to get into a position any infiltrator can just guarantee they start in. He doesn't outshoot any other units in the faction (I'll take Karakuri or linked Haramaki for that), he doesn't sneak better than a ninja. He's going to have trouble getting into CC to make use of MA and dual wield. So someone tell me, what is it that a Shikami does?

 

He wears a pretty dope hat better than everyone else. So he's got that going for him, I guess.

 

@meikyoushisui
4. Give them Eclipse 'nades.

Isn't going to happen, Eclipse is soft-locked for JSA, but still.

 

I voted for Keisotsu and Neko Oyama. Keisotsu because they're missing a couple of Heavy Weapons like the Sniper, for a really long time I thought the ML was a girl, and they're out of proportion with the other Yu Jing LI. They way I see it, Zhanshi got a new sculpt, Celestial Guard, Kuang Shi, and now they're next.

The Oniwaban is classic infinity, and in a good way. It's a very solid pose and the details hold up. Nakadai doesn't look all the much different and basically counts as a Oniwaban resculpt. Headswap Nakadai with a Shikami's non-hat head and you've got a solid generic Oniwaban that still doesn't look all that much better than the regular one. I'd say it doesn't need a resculpt.

I'd defend the Haramaki because they are my favorite looking JSA unit, look absolutely solid in terms of sculpt. The details of the legs and body match up with the modern sculpts of HI, they've got CC poses to proxy any profile, a decent balance between genders, and the problem of them looking short next to Domaru is more a problem of the Domaru box being scaled too large than the Haramaki boxes. I just field the one or two lady Domarus I bought of ebay on the regular bases and have my Haramaki on tall zen garden bases. Discrepancy isn't that much.

Karakuri are in an ok spot, with their hips and thighs they land this "inhuman" look that's awesome. Kempeitei look good with their hoods.

So my reluctant second vote is for Neko Oyama, which from some sniper shots seems a decent possibility. Current sculpt's not too bad, I like how the chain rifle is hidden, but I feel like something more could be done.

If there was an option for a Raiden I wouldn't have selected it, because the current sculpts are solid and I have no interest in the Sniper (but I do see it possibly being the "obligatory debatable use sniper" that starter sets get).

I mean, we have four different sculpts showing us how he looked like during Aristeia, but what about for when he escaped afterwards? He obviously needs at least two more versions, with and without hats.

Basically everyone since the profile came out. I've seen other people proxy the profile since day one, in and out of JSA and Generic Yu Jing. Use the smoke you would have thrown out with Yojimbo, Saito Togan, or Kitsune and then one full order of movement and you're in the same spot that a button pushing ninja would have been, except you too can push buttons and do 3/4ths of the job that the ninja would have done, but you're also more durable against mines and template weapons because of the higher PH, armor and two wounds, can surprise people with your shooting by super jumping above select rooftops, better in close combat outside of surprise attack, less vulnerable to MSV, can more easily get into late game positions between climbing plus and super jump, can counter link team reactive turn bonuses with the nimbus grenade with the -1 Burst and -3 BS, therefore making it more easy for you or other troops to "slice the pie," better Kinematika, and you've got a sweet assault pistol. It's like a Ninja+++, don't think of it as an Oniwaban(-). There's a reason there's plenty of discussion about taking Hac Tao over Daofei and this isn't much different. Sure it's a bit more situational, better at dominating central zones and objective buildings, but it's still pretty good.

 

I disagree entirely. Every single time he goes on the table he under performs badly versus his cost. He's too slow to get into position to press buttons where other specialists start on top of them, and he has mediocre to bad combat potential.

He's a total waste of orders. Ninjas and Guilang start on top of buttons and will always outclass the Shikami at nearly half the cost. He needs either more mobility or more combat prowess to actually be worth fielding. You call him a Ninja+, he's not that, he's a bloody Ninja(-) because he's order inefficient taking too bloody long to get anywhere useful. The only way he gets to be a Ninja+ is if he gets Infiltration added to his profile.

You can waste a bunch of orders moving his fat ass around, or you can spend 1 order to immediately press a button with a Ninja or Guilang, which your opponent may not even have realised is on the table, then do the usual YJ thing and throw your other 9 orders into a nasty rambo piece like a Su-Jian/Kitsune/Rui Shi and watch them destroy everything your opponent cherishes. There's no need for buggering about with Nimbus Grenades against a link team which work both ways when you can just throw smoke and then apply a Rui Shi to the situation, with the added bonus of packing shock ammo.

Maybe if Yu Jing was Pan-O and didn't have alot of mid field skirmishing options that are really good at pushing buttons the Shikami would look alot more attractive... but Yu Jing has alot of mid field skirmishing options that are really good at pushing buttons.

So he needs to be good at combat which he's not but hey at least he's got Climbing+ that's unique right -- Oh look Battlecat is running twice as fast as the Shikami can up that wall and has 3 times as many big guns attached and effectively an extra wound ok then nevermind forget I mentioned shit...

The Daofei vs Hac Tao argument comparison isn't even remotely relevant considering how much better the Daofei is under his own merits than a Shikami. He's got infiltration and a marker state, and he can actually bring a big stick to hammer people with.

Shikami's got only a single reason to play him. Exclusions zones. He can actually get a look in those missions, but only because the missions specifically gimp the far superior options already available in faction. So if you play alot of exclusion zone missions I'm sure you can find a reason for him to look good, but only because the Ninja can't do their usual job.

 

Shikami isn't a Ninja at all, he's a Domaru+ and a good way for JSA to get a survivable Datatracker. I do agree that the unit would benefit immensely from even Forward Deployment L1 (and the 2-3 points extra cost). And with "benefit" I mean "need badly". They're a bit of a Sepulchre Knight in that regard, good on paper but lacking something when it comes to actually playing them.

 

Yeah, if you deploy at the very edge of your deployment zone exactly 12 inches from an objective, and somehow can move 8 inches in full cover from the enemy but in a straight line. If you can be in that place in one move-move order you are either playing on a bad table or against a bad opponent.

The only difference is Dual Wield, which is great, but the -mod from surprise attack is much better for winning the f2f roll.

Except that you get those negatives too. It's really only good if you can stack it with a visual modifier (so the Shikami is okay for this) or if you use it on units with close-mid range loadouts and shoot them out with long range loadouts. If there was a Boarding Shotgun loadout on the Shikami, I think I would be more okay with this, I think. ODD nimbus boarding shotgun means you shoot on a 15 through the nimbus and they shoot at -9 before range bands -- which also allows you to use him more efficiently by shotgunning 2-3 guys in a link at a time since you have less to worry about (that's a place where 3 armor and 2 wounds sounds really useful).

I don't think this is a good comparison. The Dao-Fei is a midfield shooting piece or specialist with mid-field loadouts, infiltration and camo to move safely. The Hac Tao profiles that actually get played are all the longer range loadouts that allow him to deploy safely and either completely destroy something in a first turn ARO or catch an enemy off-guard and kill all of their ARO pieces in turn one. Very different roles.

On the other hand, ninja and Shikami have close range loadouts, but one of those pieces has no gap closing abilities.

I'm definitely in this school of thought. His stat line is identical to a Domaru, they both have MA Lv.3 and Kinematic Lv.2. I can see an argument for him as a data tracker, but only in missions like Supplies where you can have a ninja bring a box back to him on the first turn. In missions where killing the Data Tracker is important, I would rather use a Karakuri personally.

 

Wait...you guys really care about whether the Shikami performs good or bad O.o? The dude looks so bloody cool, he might as well not do anything all game long, and I'd still want one in my army just for his awesome looks!

I do agree that he needs a bit of extra work (orders) to perform great, but so far he never failed to do his duty for me, usually murdering at least his points worth if not double, while also getting an objective or two on the way...and the fact that he does all that while running along walls, jumping from building to building, and wearing a cool hat....auto include in any JSA List for me unless I REALLY want to try out something funky that leaves no points for a Shikami...

Also....people talk as if it's either or....obviously you take the Shikami AND the Ninja O.o

 

Nah, @Yasashii Fuyu , more a case of "we didn't need two sculpts" and the list for what would have been more welcome is long indeed.

 

THIS ENTIRE THREAD WAS A MISTAKE. @Mc_Clane you screwed us all

 

hahahaha this thread has been glorious! (and sad at the same time...goodnight sweet haramakis)