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[EN] CA Future Wishlisting/Speculation

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by gamma ray, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    B2 Anti-Material weapon on a BS11 model (add Fireteam bonus at request).
     
  2. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

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    Still DA ammo is also anti material and the MSR math is much better than K1 on any but the most armoured targets. For light armoured targets even simple sniper works much better. Taking K1 for Anti-Material means having subpar weapon against normal targets.

    I would rather take Missile Launcher even with lower burst and +0,5SWC for defensive link anyway.
     
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I would much rather have a regular sniper rifle than a K1. The fact that it is DAM 12 really hurts; you don't break even with a regular sniper until the target has ARM 3, and it doesn't even have shock.

    Sure, it's anti-materiel, but at least locally I don't play with scenarios where that matters often enough for it to make the weapon stand out. And to top it all off, it is points-wise almost as expensive as an MSR, while being significantly less deadly overall.
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I'd say - switch MSR and K1SR between Vanguards and Zerat. It'd be much easier for the latter to use it effectively, hunting high ARM targets out of cover. And Marksmanship L1 for Zerats is also on my wishlist.
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ok, for cost comparison: it is directly 0.5 CAP cheaper than MSR, now for points: among Zanshi, a MSR is 3 points more expesive than the ML, same as Fusiliers, same as Alguaciles, and I cannot compare to other basic LI because they have a different loadout (extra gear, or no ML/SR option). On Morat Vanguard, it is 2 points more expensive.

    About "even": no, there is no comparison (remember, nobody uses AP with an MSR unless the target has 7+ armor), but the point is, with a K1 weapon you wound always with 50% if the target is in cover, 60% if not.

    Now, the reality is that the Morat Vanguard fireteam is something so specific, so rarely used, and usually with Treitak Anyat (carrying a K1 combi rifle herself), you will go with HMG.

    I would ask for a +1 PHIS and +1ARM for the Vanguards, however. And maybe +3PB, but that would need further analisis because of the hacking device.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What about ARM values for Morat troops that make sense for their models? Well, wait. That might mean ARM 4-5 MI... :)
     
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  7. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Gosh, I would go nuts over this.

    Sure, it would make the army cost get stratospheric, but it would be so much fun!
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I was comparing it to a regular sniper rifle, which generally costs 0.5 SWC and +4 points over a combi. For cmparison, a K1 sniper costs 1.0 SWC and +7 points, and the MSR costs 1.5 SWC and +8 points. I find that most armies have the majority of models with 3 or less ARM, which means that the K1 sniper is less effective than a basic sniper rifle, while costing significantly more.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They should make K1 snipers damage 13 or 14, I think.
     
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  10. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    K1 snipers certainly need a damage hike.
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Either that, or ignore the ARM bonus from cover aswell... that would, however, increase the value of Mimetism, ODD, Camo, and Camo TO, which would mean an increase in value to the only MSV2+K1 SR carrying model: Teucer (who costs 1.5 CAP and 40 odd points).
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Yeah, a K1 Combi at DAM 12 makes sense, since it's DAM-1 vs. the normal weapon, and thus is only at a disadvantage for ARM 0 troops, and by the time you get to high-ARM enemies, it's surprisingly dangerous.
     
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  13. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    You can do that as well by making K1 Snipers an ITW like Plasma. Pseudo damage buff of 3 against everything. Not sure how I'd sit with that from a balance POV but just throwing ideas out there.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Problem with that, it would be like a Plasma Sniper rifle, with damage 12, and that would make them insane: 10+ to wound to all, and placing a template... (and I'm not even considering giving it the "save ARM and BTS", just a template like the light shotgun for example).

    Reducing all ARM to 0 and ignoring ARM from cover means any would from a K1 weapon would be 50% to wound, which I think is, in itself, quite the improvement.
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    As it stands, K1 Sniper stacks up really poorly against the MULTI Sniper. DA ammo keeps the MULTI ahead for most opponent ARM values, and by the time K1 starts inching ahead, the MULTI switches to AP and almost makes up the difference. (And this is completely ignoring that DA is a much better ARO ammo, as well)

    Here are some numbers from an unlinked Vanguard shooting a K1 Sniper at various targets compared to the same unit with a MULTI Sniper (everyone in cover, everyone at +3 range bands):
    So for a less 5 percentage point benefit against the hardest target in the game, you are giving up an up to 15 percentage point chance to wound against the most numerous targets in the game. It's just not a good tradeoff; AP at DAM 15 is much more versatile than K1.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Infinity is full of unbalanced tradeoffs like this though. The points system is inherently unbalanced. All those fireteam troops with Frenzy? ARM being overcosted?
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I think that there are a number of situations where Frenzy is either giving too much discount or in a fireteam scenario it's unbalanced. I was happy to see Phoenix lose frenzy, for example, even though he's now the only Myrmidon without it. It did a good job of both reigning in Phoenix lists in Steel Phalanx and also made him more attractive in Vanilla Aleph.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's one thing. Also, smoke grenades - they're probably the most powerful ability in the game. Why are they so cheap?
     
  19. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Off the cuff partial answers:
    • They have no direct offensive capabilities - their value is almost entirely tied to what they enable you to do
      • If you want access to smoke, you are frequently looking at the cost of the troop that carries the smoke grenades, not the cost of the grenades themselves
      • That means you're taking up a combat group slot in order to include this as an army capability
      • A lot of this comes down to internal faction balance, where the exact combination of smoke, MSV, and CC are (hopefully) carefully considered in conjunction to each other
    • A number of Infinity points costs (still) make more sense if looked at in a pure firefight light than in a mission-centered context
    • Using them to cross a large area safely can be incredibly order-intensive, which means that they may be powerful, but they are not always efficient
    I'm sure there's more, and I'm not necessarily saying that they are priced 100% correctly. But while you might thing that smoke is undercosted, I'm probably not taking Daturazi if they cost 20+ points for the cheapest version.
     
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  20. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    I would like more EI Batroids fulfilling the more atypical roles. Like Hunter Killer REMs and stuff, kinda like a reverse Kaauri or more like the old Iskaller*. Want those dreads and sharp teeth to make a really predatory feel.

    More Sygmaa too, but I'm not sure what unit types they could fuflil. Aggressive Medic units? Sort of our equivalent of Hospitallers? CA could do with some more doctors.

    *- I can't really remember what Iskallers used to do, I'll have to hunt down my old books.