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EM Grenade Launcher sucks and here is why

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Djevel, Feb 22, 2019.

  1. BigBadFox

    BigBadFox Well-Known Member

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    I just dont care about Druze and their EM LGL. Why? Because nobody plays Druze. I will probably never see them on the table at a tournament and so there is no need to break my head about them. I prefer to have a good match up against the factions you will see more regularly, then to include some secret magic tech in my list just to counter something I probably wont even see in my entire Infinity lifetime.

    If Druze were a MtG Deck, I wouldnt even put a card for this matchup in my sideboard, if you allow the comparison.
     
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  2. Zmaj

    Zmaj New Member

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    What is exactly considered a "sealed room"? I watched a game where Emily in a link with the Girls SpecFired from one building to another and I felt bed just from watching it ^^' Is this possible? I always thought that only "sealed room" is the Armoury with all doors closed.
     
  3. Djevel

    Djevel Member

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    OldGregg 4-6 Orders to isolate two Members of a link? You now i don't need to focus the template over a specific model, I can place it between them, and it is often the case that you get 2-3 Models under one template, beceause most of the people want to place them in good position (cover etc) and not only aware of the guided template from above.

    I never saw a room where you can hide, beceause if there is a window or some other opening I can reach you...

    You need no FO to let it work properly. And your point that you have to move in good working range is no argument, beceause it is not hard to move in 24 inches to the target.

    You need 2-3 Orders to take a Marut or Avatar out of the game... that is a trade I always would take.
    Yeah it doesn't kill the model, but this point is also stupid, beceause an immobilized and isolatet marut is likewise dead.
    Then play this situation forward, maybe your marut is your LT so you begin your round in LOL. For repairing you have also to calculate 2-3 orders minimum... Even if you suceed all this, you lost a complete round for an investement of lets say 4-5 Orders from the EM LGL.

    The it doesn't kill argument is also invalid, in a game that focus on Objective points, where it is more than OK when you can take out some targets with a high risk potential for your own without taking any risks.

    And in the next round the enemy can do the same, again, and now he has to spend less orders beceause he is in range...


    like I said the point is that all the advantage lies on the user of the EM LGL beceause: No LOF, Easy to come in range, One hit weapon against 98% of all units, and F2F with no risk for your own.
    The only thing you risk is 2-5 Orders, neither you take the risk to get shot in F2F...
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because you wrote points 5, 6 and 7, it is obvious you haven't read the thread or the arguments, but rather respond to what your own presumptions of the arguments are.
    5 - They clearly argue that it's OP
    6 - They clearly argue that it doesn't need FO or triangulation
    7 - They clearly argue that the two fireteams in question are not expensive or unpopular for what they do

    (There's issues with your other 4 points as well, but those are less important)

    P.s. I mean, if these are your opinions you should probably elaborate on them or at least argue for them because they clearly are the point of discussion for the thread so they can't be dismissed as irrelevant as such.
     
    #44 Mahtamori, Feb 24, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  5. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you may need to reread:
    If you read further, I provide advice on deploying in and around buildings/total cover.

    24" is 4-6 orders for the druze link. (At least 6 if you actually deploy effective ARO pieces). Then you have (lets just say you get lucky) 2-3 orders to isolate a marut. Now you only have a couple orders in which you can try to do anything else, but you have a whole lot of problems to solve. Your link and specialists are out of position, and you haven't spent any of these orders going after an objective. How are you going to do all of that with 4-2 move and contend with AROs? (And you will contend with these if you're playing a half way decent opponent).

    If this is the case, and your fantasy world of zero AROs have happened - You are in LoL and down one order. You even have command tokens to fix this.

    I don't buy this losing you a game, unless you just give up. Players all over these forums will agree that a game of infinity isn't over until its over. LoL only really hurts when it happens before your last round, but if it really bothers you, bring CoC. Or, cheaper, hide a Lt. like most players. Makes it a bit harder to find.

    If you take 0 measures to limit the ability of your opponent to do this - or ensure it doesn't matter by scoring objective points, I think you probably deserve to lose the game.

    As for sealed buildings, I addressed this in response to @Hecaton and I think it is kind of a moot point. He claims to be a good player, (won't argue because I simply don't know), who doesn't often see sealed rooms. I don't either, and it has never been an issue. If you happen to play in a meta where spec-fire is making your games less fun, suggesting the inclusion of this scenery isn't a stretch of the imagination.

    Spend some time over in the DBS forum. You'll soon realize this game plan isn't common in a faction that has less players than just about everyone else.
     
    #45 oldGregg, Feb 24, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  6. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    Terrain rules need to be moved from advanced, optional to basic, mandatory. CB says they are an important aspect of the game, but the rules are not presented that way at all.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Off the top of my head, I can only remember one table where this is possible in my meta. In general my experience with tables like that (or where windows have been regarded as solid objects) is complete misery. Far too easy to hide stuff that can do their job without ever gaining LOF to anything.

    So let's not use terrible terrain as an argument.
     
  8. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Try a taste of your own medicine @Mahtamori and read the rest of my posts.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sure. Read 'em. Responded to the one that was (at least I think, because who knows with that style of quoting?) addressed to me. A solution to a problem that makes a considerable extra amount of problems isn't a solution. Specifically in this case, you can largely thank Jammers, Hackers, and the nature of LT shell games for that.

    You're saying that spec firing is fine. I haven't had the misfortune of playing Bayram yet, but until I do I agree with that sentiment. However, this is not a tautology that can be used unsupported as an argument against the claim of its opposite.
     
  10. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    If you read, then it sounds like you failed to comprehend. If you agree, then wtf are you doing? I’ve supported everything I’ve posted with real examples. Infinity is a complex game that sometimes requires complex solution. If any of my solutions (not complex) are too difficult for you, then maybe you need to brush up on other areas of the game.

    Furthermore, if you’ve never played as or against DBS, I value your opinion even less.

    All the arguments laid out against the Druze e/m lgl so far, fail to hold water.

    If you aren’t happy with my formatting, try to edit your own before giving a response.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh. The terrain rules are clunky and the game is clearly not really balanced around their use. The game is likely more balanced if terrain rules are just ignored. I'd love for it to be more workable, but as of right now, it's not.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I can agree to this. What in the terrain rules are clunky?
    I can see where order economy is at an extreme premium for missions which require you to get to many points or across the table, but in general the terrain rules aren't all that difficult to deal with.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Yes this is actually insanely annoying. I remember you getting mad at me for doing the same and I never understood why, until it happened to me. It's such a garbage way to handle a subject and the way it starts 3 sub-categories of other conversations, in the same conversation is... Urgh.. Consider this my long overdue apology.
     
  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think the stopping when you touch difficult terrain is a rules simplification which has a much more profound effect on movement then the actual move penalty. I think it's clunky from unintuitive point.
     
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  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Throwing in my bit being a Druze player.

    What you feel about Druze and the E/M LGL is almost the same as what others think about the Marut and Avatar. Go read some of the complaints about them.

    The thing that mitigates any template is to NOT have more than 1 inside a template area! Remember a Link team needs to be 8" from the leader. that means you can have some up to 16" from each other with the leader the middle. I rarely see guys now have teams clumped up together. Hell, if you need to, take a template when you deploy and put it over your guys just to make sure they are not in it. At that point it's not pre-measuring.

    I also hesitate to say, "don't take a Marut", because we like to play what we like. But then how about trying Yadu? Veterans don't care about E/M.

    This is also a thing that pretty much the Druze are all about. Not only can they take that but they can also have Tanko with Blitzen, in Ikar, and rest of them can have Panzerfaust! True, those are dangerous for them to do but no matter what, that TAG is going down somehow.
     
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  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is an interesting weapon combination for sure, but needs a lot of synergy to work with, eats a lot of orders and it is not what I would call a top performer.

    Can yield great results especially with a few lucky rolls, but who wouldn't? with any weapon in a lucky situation?

    And I have used it extensively in StarCo, so under the most ideal conditions. its a tactic to base your army list in but also a huge critical issue that can fail tremendously.

    Now on the actual thread.
    The rules subforum is not about such discussions.
    I need, again, to remind to forum users about the language and level of communication, please to not start fights in the forum.
    Thanks.
     
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  17. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Emily in a full link team might actually be one of the best forward observers in the game. FO still benefits from the link team by getting a WIP bonus and Emily already has a pretty high WIP base stat, combo that with her mimetism and x-visor and she can FO targets at WIP 17 up to 48" and WIP 14 up to 96". Basically, the further you get from your target, the better your chances with only sniper rifles being able to outrange her.
    And once targeted, she can shoot her grenades at BS 16 up to 48".

    #sectorialswereamistake
     
    #57 Icchan, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Extremely binary threats are what makes high cost troops that are exponentially vulnerable against them quite unfun (namely TAGs and some HI Fireteams that suck at Dodging).

    16% success chance is not that much, but it's all that one guy who didn't show up with Druze to win the tournament but just for the heck of it needs to take a game from the guy who brought an Avatar and suddenly has a loss.

    Then again, there are simply bad matchups and I'm not sure if you can realistically design the game without them.
    There really should be a secondary means in addition to Engineers to deal with both E/M and Isolation. Requiring 2 Orders per Order for Isolation, A Reset at -6 to downgrade from IMM-2 to IMM-1 for E/M or something.
    Getting your expensive troops turned to saltpillars isn't exactly the most fun mechanic... then again so is losing the same guys to Mono CCWs.
     
    #58 Teslarod, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  19. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Engineers cancel all applicable states from the target with a single short skill, multiple orders not needed.
    "by passing a Normal WIP Roll, the user may cancel all of the target's states susceptible of being repaired by an Engineer (Burnt, Disabled, Immobilized, Isolated...)."
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...

    A very common Technician skill that works like Engineer, except it has the receiving target make a WIP-3 roll with no CT usage allowed would be an interesting way of solving a lot of these status effect things. One way to soften hard-counters is to make mitigation more accessible, and in my experience playing Yu Jing the big problem is that Engineers tend to be hard to come by, expensive (for what they otherwise are incompetent at doing), and never where they're needed. I'm sure it's similar in Pan-O and most/all of NA2. (And yes, that's Paramedic for Engineer)

    Not saying that E/M specifically makes Technician wanted, but each new release seem to bring more state effects
     
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