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Elephant in the room...

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by MikeTheScrivener, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Yeah, I was wondering the same thing when I was putting this together. I have no good answer for now, but I'd probably give them AVA3 and call it a day.
     
  2. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I'll send you some pics by PM when I'll have more time for this, sure.
    I don't say that I kill in CC in every game but since this option isn't out like it is for the three other sectorials, I don't fear to go in it. If you know your odds a bit, you find out CC is more effective to kill troopers than shooting (shooting wounds a lot but has more difficulties to kill straight). We have this discussion sometimes with my brother and he says that knights are more reliable in CC than Myrms because they have this second wound and better damage. To him, CC is more like a tax on Myrms and more like a tool on knights because you don't fear to get wounded a bit and Myrms' ODD helps them more at shooting than MA3 at CC.

    Tricks like forcing ZoC ARO to get into CC without punishment is also something helpful.

    Anyway, yes, even now MO isn't 100% perfect but I don't think it has that much problems. Its biggest problem is that this sectorial has so much hidden tricks that you always forget some at a point and it's hard to use the whole book of cheese. Lists don't work by themselves so you kinda lose a lot until you get how to make it work. And when you change your list, you have to learn again. That's the biggest drawback in MO for people who can't play very often, to me.
     
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  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    But myrmidons are a dirt cheap package for what they bring ?
    In a 1v1 shootout barring msv they shoot better than knights.
    In a 1v1 melee they melee better than knights.

    Ma3 technically helps you more in cc than ODD does in shooting. Since it directly adds to your roll and doesnt just substract from the enemy one.

    Also if some mad man decides to shoot you on the way into cc... they stack.

    Knights having two wounds is great. But their CC is on the low end, and while you are guaranteed to not fail the roll when fighting non cc oriented troops, you can flub your singular roll. Whereas if you are throwing 4 dice on 17s you are far less likely to have all low rolls.
     
  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    They are dirt cheap, just like Magisters. But to kill an Anathematic Hacker in CC (because the situation says he is the only one in position to do it and he is the Chain rifle option), he has to win three CC fights in a row while avoiding to come in LoS in order to just not die to the Nanopulser. Each time your Myrmidon rolls for CC, it's a win or die roll (because shock CCW). Yes, you'll have 53% to wound it (wich represents about 5 or 6 orders to kill it), but each time you roll, there is a chance to fall in the 8,70% odds where he just simply dies and the Anathematic is still alive. A Magister, on the other side, will up a bit his odds to get wounded but he cares far less about this. 1W won't stop you to chop it to the bitter end.

    Myrmidons have a lot of units they just can't run in CC without dying for nothing. They have smokes to help them reach CC because they are too fragile to reach it without it. You rarely exchange with a knight at full HP charging you and that's even more true if you aren't able to deal more than one wound in ARO. So, here comes the pain and you're dead. Heck, even Teutons are pretty efficient against Myrms because Berserk gives them excellent odds to put one unconscious while the knight will just receive a wound.

    You're looking at how much good you can get your odds for the least cost you could pay for it but don't consider what could cost you the fact things screw up at one point and how much orders this run just cost you for nothing. If you need a TAG down and you only have a Myrmidon, you're going to try it while prying to never roll bad. Send a knight in it and he will do this way more confortably, even if this means that the TAG will succeed to land one punch during the fight.

    And two wounds means that you can gang up without risking to lose someone in the fight. With Myrms, well, your enomotarchos has good odds to be one member shorter after it because your target assumes to be dead and will chop one of the non-leader members.

    You can think this is not a valid way to see things and I won't argument it with you here about it as it's not the topic of this thread. But I don't think you could say I'm totally wrong.
     
    #184 Ayadan, Mar 12, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
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  5. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Anathematics have monofilament ccw. A magister is not only worse in CC vs it, it will be a larger point dump once it dies.

    The myrmydon has the chance to avoid encounters it doesnt want via smoke. Knights not so much.


    You are correct about the link team example.

    A lot of the big boy tags are equally dangerous to knights. Avatar has ph17 DA and sphinx has exp.

    Im not saying the extra wound is worthless, as it gives you a leeway for a mistake.

    But considering aside from magisters all knights are worth at minimum 2 myrmidons. It means you can double your board presence and threat projection or keep em together and be more efficient than the knight twice, all the while having an extra order.

    Im not saying myrmidons are the best troop on the game. But they are in no way looking at knights with envy
     
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  6. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    And myrms tend to tote around even better CC guys than them. And an mathematic hacker can potentially ruin the knight on the way in if he immobilizes the guy first then hes eating free attacks while trying to reset. And like others said, the myrm can smoke into combat. The anethemaric can also be in suppression fire or even just normally shoot and put the knight in danger. It's not as clear cut right off the bat as it may seem.
     
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  7. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    TBH if it boils down to smoke or 2W on my CC specialist. I'm taking smoke every time.
     
  8. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    Only some profiles have the mono CCW. Some have shock. The Hacker that he specifically mentioned has shock. In the case of the Hacker though the Magister has to worry about that on his way in while the Myrmidon does not.
     
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  9. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    Magister have Stealth the only time when he can get hacked is when going in BtB then it's an opposition hacking/close combat (or shotgun) and the magister is likely to win
     
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  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Or in the anathematics active turn. Or in any instance the magister performs an order other than move in the zoc of the anathematic or any repeater on the table.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Which in a Fireteam is frequently.
     
  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Lol Magisters ain't got shit on Myrmidons, Myrmidons are *incredible*. But who cares, let Phalanx have it's CC edge thats what its suppost to do. Visual mods being OP? No fucking shit lol, nothing we can do about that

    I think MO's biggest problems are;
    • It's a limited insertion orientated faction, and limited insertion is still pretty crappy
    • Low order count lists struggle against perimeter defences and camo which have gotten better and better over the years
    I love the faction, but it bricks so fucking hard into camospam or spammy defense in general. I'm sure you can play something that isn't a heavy metal link and do well, but fuck I don't play MO for Order Sgt spam or for some halfway knights/sgt list that loses two orders on the first turn, I play it for the pain train
     
  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    As I said, it's not the proper topic for this debate. And I took the Myrmidons as example because they are the only ones I have a real feedback on from a very good player. And Anathematic Hacker has a Shock CCW, unlike all the other profiles equipped with a mono CCW.
    And like I said, it may be meta dependant. I always face Libertos, Pretas, Kuang Shis and Irmandinhos, who are good for cost efficient trades (and really effective against Myrms) but don't like to face Magisters or any 2W trooper with CC skills because they can't intimidate or exchange themselve with their target.

    The main problem I had with MO is me doing crap decisions or playing a list without the tools I needed to play on a table or to face a particular faction (because I made an error while choosing my list). So, I'm not pro or against Smoke/Eclipse but I pretty love what we already have.