See my point about a secret order of operations. The difference between AP+Shock and EM+Normal is that: AP+Shock both make the user take ARM saves. This means that you make 1 ARM roll. Whereas EM + Normal makes the user take 1 BTS roll and 1 ARM roll. IE. Shock gets annihilated (secret step 1) before you have the option to choose to take it on BTS.(secret step 3). Edit: the issue is actually with Karakuri applying the plain English version of 'treating as', because in the example they don't do that. Instead they resolve the ammo as '1 Roll vs BTS with no Special Effects that otherwise behaves like Normal ammunition'. I can kinda see how that later is 'treating as', but it's a large stretch. So either the example is wrong or the language used is misleading. I find example clearer than the rule so prefer that. Tl;dr the plain English reading of the rules and the example don't appear to agree. @Arkhos "What happens when a trooper with TI takes one hit that makes the target make 1BTS and 1ARM roll, for example when being hit by an EM CCW which does EM+Normal damage?" A. TI treats all hits as Normal Ammunition. Effectively this means that the hit is treated as being from Normal+Normal ammunition. As per the rules for combining ammunition, when two types of ammunition both affect the same attribute the target makes 1 Roll only. B. As the example to Total Immunity shows, when hit by EM ammunition the target is forced to make a BTS roll without Special Effects the outcome of which causes the same effects as per Normal Ammunition. So when hit by EM+Normal the target must make 1BTS and 1ARM roll. However, if the trooper has a high ARM or BTS value, they can choose whether to make ARM or BTS Rolls, without applying the special effects of the ammo. This same reasoning applies in other similar circumstances such as Breaker+Shock hits.
*shrug* interpret it as you wish, I certainly don't agree that this is the order of operation, I'm going to go with IJW's interpretation here as I find it to be the most reasonable and likely to be given as FAQ.
Oh, I absolutely agree with that. They're going to go with A, no question. It's the simplest answer that looks the RAWest. The example, however, drives you to do B IF a distinction between what roll is caused and what roll is resolved matters. Depending on how they rule they might also finally unfuck Breaker+Shock vs Bio. Because this whole problem would go away if the only thing that mattered was what attribute you resolved the hit against. And yes, this would mean that the FAQ on AP+Shock vs TI excludes a technically legal option but one that is always worse.
@Mahtamori you'd be surprised, but I would actually prefer your solution (both ammo types get converted into Normal and cause just one roll with the save of your choosing) to this then having the Karakuri to roll ARM+BTS (which it can replace with ARM+ARM, BTS+ARM or BTS+BTS). And I actually find latter way is a bit counterintuitive -- why would a machine that doesn't care about being electrocuted suddenly get damage from electrocution? It's just that at the moment I don't find your arguments valid enough to agree with your premise. And I hate to stress that, but there is offence meant in any if my comments, I am all for polite and meaningful discussions.
A couple of days ago on Infinity Australia @ijw seemed to suggest that you make two rolls (at least that's how IA understood the comment). But I honestly don't know if he meant it that way or if he meant it to support @Mahtamori IJW, would you mind awfully weighing in here?
My opinion hasn't altered from the FB thread, and I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't in the first post for context, as I'd given that answer before this thread was started. :-( 'Close Combat Weapons that use E/M Special Ammunition cause Normal damage in addition to the E/M effect. Critical hits in CC are always applied to the E/M effect. Consequently, the target must make an ARM Roll in addition to the BTS Roll (with half its usual BTS value). For both Rolls, the CC Weapon's Damage is the trooper's PH Attribute.' My emphasis. I can see an argument for claiming that the CCW isn't 'using' EM Ammo so that you wouldn't apply that section, but I don't think that fits the way Total Immunity works, because it treats hits as being with normal ammo, rather than changing the weapon itself.
So, what you're saying is that the ammo doesn't combine because the weapon causes EM+N, not because EM targets BTS. Does this mean you also say that a Karakuri hit by a Direct Mode Missile Launcher would suffer a N+N hit resulting in two saves?
I'm fairly certain I'm the only person from IA active in this thread and since I didn't notice your comment in that thread until recently *shrug*
No, I'm saying that, in my opinion, the CCW causes Normal damage in addition to it's regular ammo type. I thought @n21lv was involved in that discussion?
So do we or do we not combine ammo types? Other weapons that causes additional damage types combine Edit: Using the following rule http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Types_of_Special_Ammunition Weapons with two or more Special Ammunition types in brackets separated by the 'plus' symbol (AP+DA, for example) apply the effects of both in each of their Attacks. Certain Special Skills, such as Dual Wield, allow the user to combine the effects of two or more types of Special Ammunition. In either case, when the combined effects involve the same Attribute (ARM, for example), apply both in the same Roll. For example, in the case of AP+DA, two Special Ammunition types that affect ARM, each successful attack would cause the target to make two ARM Rolls (due to DA Special Ammunition) with his ARM value halved (due to AP Special Ammunition) in both Rolls.
Yeah... I still go with the example and maintain that it's 1 BTS Roll (with no Special Effects) + 1 ARM Roll (with no Special Effects), either of which can be taken on ARM or BTS. But I'm a touch amused...
To be fair, I'm using it to comment about the conversation not make a point within it. @ijw's position may be the soundest one; nevertheless it amuses me. It's kinda a theme of Rules conversations on this forum: interpretations proliferate rather than condense.
If we're being picky, other weapons being discussed use Special Ammunition. There is no rule for combining Normal Ammunition + Normal Ammunition into a single save. Please note that I have no strong feelings either way, and think that there are valid arguments either way, but I was asked to give my opinion so I've done so.
Many thanks. I just wasn't expecting it to turn out the way it did (I was expecting it to be A or B) :)
Okay. So a Domaru that hits a Fusilier with their E/M CCW and their Shock CCW while using Dual Wield results in the Fusilier making an BTS/2 save versus ISO, an ARM versus instant death AND an ARM versus non-instant death so 3 saves in total? Turns out I've been playing Domaru wrong for quite some time. This storm in a teacup just escalated to a storm in a pint.
Ok, this is another example that I hope will clear up in N4 for complexity sake. I think the "intended" way to play this would be that the target has to make just one save. RAW it results in the arguments above that I can follow, but don't like, because it is not intuitive to understand. The biggest benefit of the recent TI change is that it is easier to play because you don't have to remember which ammo type effects it and which not. The exception that in case of CCW's combined with some special ammo, its treated differently may be RAW and correct, but it's a thing I won't miss in a new rule set. How would you rule Dual wield with an EM/2 CCW + Shock CCW? Is it three saves? I can't tell without studying 3 pages of wiki, but I guess intended would be just one save.
I'm just having flash backs to all of the 'you got a critical with a non-damage causing weapon, is that supposed to be an automatic wound?' threads. After the way they had to rewrite Total Immunity, does it seem likely that they meant to leave a situation where applying Total Immunity would cause more damage to the trooper than if it lacked total immunity? No, it doesn't.
Remember that TI was re-written to actually do what the rule name sounds like. Regardless of the effect on gameplay. Personally, I think that CB didn't use enough Vulnerabilities on models with TI, given the new effects, but that is an argument for the N4 thread. I would read a hit with an EM CCW (which does 1x ARM roll and 1x BTS roll, BTS at half value) on a target with Total Immunity as still doing two damage rolls, on either straight ARM or BTS whichever is higher. And per the example in Total Immunity, instead of getting Isolated for failing the nominally-BTS EM damage roll, will suffer -1W for each failed roll. So I'd seriously consider NOT invoking TI against an EM CCW. Do I need to post the relevant rules quotes again?
