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Domaru, E/M, Shock, DA and Dual wield

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Gero, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    A Domaru in Base to Base contact declares a CC attack using Dual wield which combines both types of Ammunition into a single Roll.

    E/M says that it forces 2 Rolls 1 for Damage using ARM and 1 for the Effect...

    If a Shock Weapon is combined with this, would that Mean the Target has 2 Arm Saves (1 Normal, 1Shock) and 1 BTS for the effect of E/M?

    Would a similar Process go into DA meaning 3 Arm Saves 2 Against DA 1 against e/m damage and 1 against BTS for the Effect of E/M?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No and No. ARM effects combines. It's BTS + 1x ARM (Shock) and BTS + 2x ARM respectively.

    Remember that E/M CCW overwrites normal crit effects!

    (Edit: sorry for the excessive editing, I misread the initial setup)
     
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  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That is covered here: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Types_of_Special_Ammunition
    The short version: You join all the ARM effects and all the BTS effects.
    N + Shock + E/M = 1 ARM save (Shock) + 1 BTS/2 save (E/M)
    N + DA + E/M = 2 ARM save (DA) + 1 BTS/2 save (E/M)
    Basically N ammo is nulified by any special ammo that deals damage in ARM
     
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  4. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Thank you guys!! I didn’t know where in the wiki dual wield was...
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    meikyoushisui and colbrook like this.
  6. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    @ijw of course it is there, sorry what I meant to say was how the combination of Ammunition worked xD
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Ah!. That's in the link that Ogid provided.
     
  8. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    as mahtamori alluded to - if you plan on killing something in melee rather than just locking it down don't utilize dual wield and keep that EM CCW sheathed.
     
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  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Why is more effective not using it? AFAIK there is no rule that forces you to select the crit effect of E/M ammo instead of the shock one. In fact how critical hits works while combining ammo isn't 100% clear yet.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    For E/M CCW it is clear (see added underline emphasis below)

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Electromagnetic_(E/M)_Special_Ammunition

    E/M Special Ammunition and CC Weapons
    Close Combat Weapons that use E/M Special Ammunition cause Normal damage in addition to the E/M effect. Critical hits in CC are always applied to the E/M effect.

    Consequently, the target must make an ARM Roll in addition to the BTS Roll (with half its usual BTS value). For both Rolls, the CC Weapon's Damage is the trooper's PH Attribute.
     
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  11. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That rule is only about the E/M CCW, not about combined ammo.
    In infinity you cannot extrapolate a rule unless you are told specificaly that you can. And as I know that is the next thing anyone is going to say:
    That line is in a paragraph taking only about N+E/M, that line cannot be taken out of context to extrapolate that rule to other ammunitions. If that is the intention then it's deceitful and should be reworded.

    If you use a E/M CCW, then yes, you must crit in E/M. If you use dual wield to combine Shock + E/M, there is no rule covering that.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, it is a paragraph that deals with E/M Close Combat Weapons, it does not apply to E/M+Normal damage when it's a shooting attack. Applying standard damage combination rules and it is clear that the E/M CCW's critical effect rule will remove any possibility of critting with the ARM damage portion of the attack
     
  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's my point, it's not clear.

    These 2 points are in the same line, not in different paragraph or different bullet points; so the second line is related to the first one. Hence, that is rulling about the E/M CCW case, not about a general case.

    In Dual Wield and Combined ammo rules there is no rules about how to handle critics while combining ammo.
    Rules must be consistent, in Infinity we have been told that we cannot extrapolate, without extrapolation that rule applies only to the E/M CCW.

    I can take the forum ruling that this is suposed to work like that, but from an extrictly RAW point of view; that's uncovered.
    So please take note for future editions.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Look, one of the weapons the Domaru uses has a rule which explicitly says "this is how a critical hit is applied when you use this weapon" it doesn't get more clear than that. It's literally impossible.

    You can argue all you want about the general case where E/M CCW is not included, but since I have no answer there I am simply not going to provide any counter point. Here, however, it's very clear cut, you can't follow all the rules if you apply the critical hit effect on anything but the E/M effect.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I know I'm pretty fussy; but I want better rules for this game and the only way to get them is calling out the ones that are missleading.

    One of the weapons of the domaru have a rule telling you how to handle a critical hit when you are using that weapon, which uses the N + E/M combined ammo rules. But when you combine ammo with the Shock weapon there is no rules that explain how to handle the new Shock + E/M combined ammo. There is no rules explaining the Shock + E/M ammo interaction (rules that should be covered in Dual weapons or in ammo part of the rules)

    Plus that rule is inside the E/M rules, a piece of the rules who only talks about E/M and the explanation is only covering the E/M CCW.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Please note that these are not the rules for E/M Close Combat Weapons. These are the rules for E/M Special Ammunition.

    If you add Shock to E/M, or add E/M to Shock, in both cases it's going to fall under "Close Combat Weapons that use E/M Special Ammunition".

    EDIT
    See above. This is the explanation for any CCW that involves E/M.
     
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  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I get what you said is the intent of the rule, I acknowledge it and I'll play like that.

    My point is that is missleading; the 2 paragraphs seems to be talking only about the E/M CCW case; plus we had been told not to extrapolate anything; also how the combined ammo critical hits works should be covered in the part of the rules which talks about that (and that's not covered there).

    Don't mix up things here. Ok, I get the RAI. My point is: take note about this issue so in the future this get explained better.
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    And my point is that this interpretation requires ignoring the title and text of the section you're reading, and ignoring the only precedent we have of specifying the ammo type who's critical effect is applied for multiple ammo types.

    If it said 'when using E/M CCWs' or similar, I'd be 100% on your side that it's misleading. But it doesn't say that, it's worded as a general rule for E/M ammo on close combat weapons.
     
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't seem general to me. In fact that's explaining how the E/M CCW works.
    My reading: E/M rules only cover the rules for E/M ammo; and those lines are talking about the especial case of the E/M CCW who deals Normal Damage in addition of E/M and there is no mention of how to handle it when combining ammo.

    It can be read as you are saying but it's not clear. The fact that that also applies to combined ammo it's something worth to add, and it takes 4 words ("even when combining ammo").

    I read rules carefuly, and I see your point, but my reading of that rules was the one I explained. If that happened to me, it'd also happen to other players; so my point is: just add those 4 words in future iterations of that rule. It cannot be considered rules bloat and will make that rule crystal clear. Also, rules about how to critical hits works while combining ammo works should be specified.

    This is more feedback about this rule than discussing how it works.
     
  20. SilverSpoon

    SilverSpoon New Member

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    Hey. Can i combine shock (from knife) and AP from AP CC weapon with Dual Wield ?

    This question has arisen because wording Knife is weird.. Dual Wield says
    • This CC Special Skill allows the user to combine the effects of the Special Ammunitions of two different CC Weapon

      But the knife is called knife. but other - CC Weapon like EM CC weapon AP CC weapon etc.