He is linking the two clauses. Adhesive isn't covered by the two clauses because it doesn't fulfil "When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls". So no, there is no argument that you can use ARM against Adhesive.
They're on holiday, but that's irrelevant. Normal ammo triggers "When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls" which means that you also get to apply "In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.". Your argument would make Normal Ammo more powerful against TI than Special Ammo that's been reduced to Normal Ammo.
Then let's disagree. The issue here in my eyes isn't that Karakuri are durable, but that some units with similar cost do not have an advantage as appropriate to the price. The issue is that normal durability is proportionally too expensive compared to its effect, not that Karakuri have become slightly more durable. Yes. Slightly. +3 ARM isn't that much.
Here's the point. How i see it from my perspective: 1) "When suffering..." - this is not a REQUIREMENTS for TI, it's EFFECTS of TI. So an "Attack... that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls" doesn't trigger anything here. This phrase is about immunity to Special Ammunitions effects, nothing more. 2) "In addition, players can choose..." - my question here is in addition to what? To getting hit or to ignoring SA? I have no answer. You all keep repeating about FO being irrelevant, but the reason in FO not about FO but about why it doesn't trigger TI. I'm a bit tired of all the discussion going circles already and would appreciate some answer from CB directly or from you asking them what is intended here. TI on Karakuri making them effectively 6-6 arm/bts would be more important.
One can always use arguments about bad wording, like "it means arm/bts/whatever" :) and this is just an example.
+3 ARM and no Vulnerability: Viral for 1 pt (when compared to the dog warrior flavors) seems like a lot less than anyone else is paying for that kind of protection.
If it was "whatever" we would include it. Honestly adhesive does not force neither ARM or BTS roll so it is not covered, do we really need to add extra lines in the rules just because people want to second guess clearly stated rules? do we really need to add a "Adhesive ammunition does not force a ARM or BTS save so TI does not stop it" either as FAQ or in the rules when the rules clearly state things that affect ARM or BTS? Now on the actual Portheon case I would side with @ijw and accept it is an interaction that passed through us.
In addition to the first Effects bullet. It's structured like this: If (Attack etc. forces ARM/BTS Rolls) then (Special Ammo becomes Normal) and (you can use ARM or BTS).
I'm not questioning the wording, which is clearly what you have emphasized, only CB's intent. Is this really what CB wanted, to make one or the other (BTS or ARM) mostly irrelevant on TI units? I'd prefer it if normal ammo didn't trigger a Total Immunity effect at all and Special ammo only allowed the optional use of either trait. I'd be happy to see this rule reworded to work this way.
3 points, but so what? There's a bunch of units that cheat the point system soooo much more and unlike E/M, viral isn't handed out like candy at a birthday party. For example, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone shooting at an Impetuous Domaru and that's a much higher discount.
I haven't specifically asked, but one of the design aims for the revised Total Immunity is that it works the same for 'all' ammo types. Obviously with the listed exceptions for Adhesive and stuff with Non-Lethal. If we go by Dr. Nik's reading, Normal Ammo would be treated differently than Special Ammo that's been reduced to Normal Ammo, which would contradict that design aim. Also, that reading would make an AP Rifle or MULTI Rifle worse than a regular Rifle when shooting a target with TI and high BTS. For example Karakuri, Namurr and both versions of Sun Tze.
Let me be cllear about that. About Adhesive it's stated in the rules, i can read :) But about Protheion it is not. And it is confusing. And the explanation is something like this. - Total Immunity doesn't ignore Protheion. - Why? - We all agree. Me too I agree that it doesn't but my reasons are from the rules from Special cases. I'm sure that TI should be ignored like in the example with FO because it is not special ammunition. Not because arm roll can be considered a bts roll (whatever example).
No. Bioimmunity only works against Bio-Munitions, not against any "Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls". This is a gross mischaracterisation of the replies you've received in this thread. TI doesn't ignore Protheion because the text of TI doesn't let it be ignored.
The wound gained from protheion isn't special ammo, it's the result of the skill. TI doesn't protect from skills. If it did it would also cancel the additional damage from MA1.
No, they weren't OP, but effectively gaining +3ARM is a huge buff. No, it gets the costing of ARM/BTS to about where it should be. Just @ijw , who is one of the playtesters and proofreaders, plus maintainer of the wiki. +3pts, actually. And ARM is the single most over-costed stat in the game. Except that Bioimmunity does allow you to choose ARM or BTS, so Bolts are effectively ARM6 against Shock and Viral weapons.
I think people have been complaining about the Frenzy/Impetuous discount for this whole edition. +1 point over the Dog Warrior, as I said. The Dog Warrior pays 2 points for Total Immunity and Vulnerability:Viral, but gets significantly less use out of it (ARM 3, BTS 0) than Karakuri, which pay 3 points for Total Immunity and gets, in additional to the ammo-changing effects, effectively 3 extra ARM. This is another example of how points costs for skills generally don't scale with the use the bearer gets from them. I'm sorry for the off topic posts. On topic, I think it's pretty clear, even before ijw's repeated explanation, that total immunity works against Protheion and (ugh) should not prevent the associated wound gain.
Let's face it, the only unit where this change brought about something potentially unfair and kind of mindblowing is McMurrough. (And that's mostly the impetuous change at no cost, because he wasn't all that bad to begin with) In either case, enough of comparative fairness discussions :)
@Section9 giving one unit "fixed" costing on its durability is a bad idea; it should be all, or none. Making them immune to most non-lethal ammo is also very powerful.
I agree, but CB hasn't been good about that before. Just look at Bolts for an example, they should have been adjusted twice before their big update. Well, you can't stun them, but you can still glue them very effectively (they're PH4 against glue!). I have to deal with a lot of Ariadna and Nomads, there are glueguns everywhere in my Meta.