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Does the guts rule do enough?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Superfluid, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Heh, no problem man. I was young when the Counter Strike gaming crazy began. I never picked up anything after "LOL" or "ROFL" and I am basically an internet dinosaur at this point.
    Personally I only recently learned (like less than a month ago), that wining FtF roll on Reset actually applied Guts Roll rule (although you are not forced to do so). I have never seen anyone do this, nor have I ever used this my self.
     
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  2. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    WHAT?!

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Reset : If the user wins the Face to Face WIP Roll, he may apply the Guts Roll rules.

    Well, i'll be damned. So if you win Reset roll you can fall back 2" to try and get out of hacking area? What the actual heck? That changes so much.
     
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  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Exactly my reaction when I found out! :tearsofjoy:
    As I said, I've never seen it used this way. Personally I don't expect this to change much in my games, in regards to hacking. I just want to use this against the freaking Jammers I constantly face!
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Although quick disclaimer here. This is something I need to confirm and it is based on my understanding of the Guts Roll rule:

    • 'If the troop is inside a danger zone, such as the Area of Effect of a Special Skill or a weapon that uses a Template or that requires no LoF, it must move up to 2 inches in order to try to exit the danger zone, or declare itself Prone if it can prevent further Attacks that way.

    • If none of the previous cases apply—because a 2-inch movement is not enough to improve the troop's Cover or make it abandon the danger zone, because the troop cannot go Prone, or for any other reason—, then, if player desires so, the troop does not move at all and performs no actions.'
    - http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Guts_Roll

    The wording on these two bullet points, as well as the underlined parts simply doesn't make any sense to me, if you aren't allowed to keep moving 2" in order to attempt escaping the zone. I don't see anything saying that you can only move if you exit the Danger Zone. I only see such wording with normal attacks that don't use Templates or Area of Effect, were you're forced to go Prone stuck on open ground, if you can't reach Cover.
     
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I use it relatively regularly.

    Free 2" moves out of the hacking zone are Very Good.
     
  6. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Can you do that on active turn to potentially gain a 6" move?
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No, you don't get to move 2" unless it gets you into cover/exits the danger area, because of the 'none of the previous clauses apply' clause.

    It's supposed to represent a panic response, not a reasoned withdrawal.
     
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  8. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    So unless 2" gets you out of the zone you don't get to move at all? Does that mean you need to double check with things like hacking area once you've stated where you want to guts to?
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Correct and correct.

    Note that Guts moves don't get declared then measured, like a normal move, because getting into better cover/exiting the zone is a 'requirement' rather than an 'effect'. So you measure 2" from the trooper and find out if there is a valid spot to move to.
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Often, however, I find that a hacker is only just in range, as spending orders to get closer is resource expensive.

    So it does come up on occasion.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It can also be used as a gambit to get people to guts out of cover. For this reason remember that Sensor is an attack.
     
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  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    'then, if player desires so, the troop does not move at all and performs no actions.'

    Then what does this sentence mean? How do I chose to do nothing and perform no action, if I can't go prone, can't move, can't improve my cover, can't literally do any of the actions available on a failed guts I'm allowed to take. What other options do I have? Can I shoot back? Can I climb? Why is worded like this?
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The bold text isn't present in the Spanish rules.
     
  14. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    Does this mean that the English speakers get another 2 inches? :P
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You need to re-run the logic of the Guts Rolls effect.

    No, you are given the option of not moving or being stuck in a situation with no specified outcome. That doesn't mean you get to pick your outcome, so you'd better desire for your model to stand still.

    I'm trying to say that the part of the sentence about desire is of no consequence and mostly a courtesy. Kind of like if a police officer is pointing a gun at you and says "Would you please step out of the car?", I suggest you don't answer "No" because there's only one answer and no is not one of them.
     
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  16. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    I know, I guess the tongue out face wasn't clear enough. That comment in the rules should be removed though, if it doesn't matter in any way.

    It is a pretty silly rule though, as it's like, "Well, I'm in the middle of the guided template/hacking area. I guess I won't try to leave now since these two steps won't save me, though a third one would, if they shoot at me again. Oh well... this is my fate (stands there like an idiot as they repeatedly try to hack him)."
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Again, a failed Guts roll is a panic reaction, not a careful withdrawal.
     
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  18. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    "Ohhhh shit! I'm getting hacked! Let me panic and stand here!"

    "Ohhh shit! Rockets are raining down from the sky hitting the guy next to me and hurting me! Let me panic and stand here!"

    I'd be running. How do you panic?
     
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  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Those two things are not mutually exclusive in the way that they can still produce the same result, as in attempting to flee.

    Given your position, I will take your word on what CB’s intention is behind the rule and what it’s suppose to represent. With all due respect, however, wouldn’t it be better and much more clear if you just remove that part of the sentence, especially since it’s not in the Spanish wording and because the ‘desire’ part of the sentence obstructs the context of the former bullet point. You’re perfectly capable of trying something, without succeeding, also in this game. You can attempt to move to your intended point, but don’t have enough movement to do so, that doesn’t mean your model won’t move. You can attempt to perform a cautious move and end up not having enough movement to reach out of LOF, that doesn’t mean you don’t move and you’re still trying to do perform what you declared. This is why the bolded part I quoted is a horrible wording to use, on a rule that is trying to be very very specific.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hypothetically, what would you, dear reader, think about if Guts had these two changes:
    1. Failing the Guts Roll (or succeeding the Religious roll) causes the trooper to be stunned in addition to forced movement.
    2. Troopers that succeed their roll can still opt to be subjected to the forced movement (this is a controlled, tactical, measure compared to the panicked one of failing the roll)