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Does the guts rule do enough?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Superfluid, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    It seems like any models worth taking just ignore it and any models worth shooting at are either also quality models and will ignore it or low quality models and just die without it being an issue?

    I love the idea of simulated morale in wargames, the fact that panic can spread, models pinned and acting on a set of rules that make them hard to control. It's narrative, cinematic, and I love it, even when it works against me.

    It just seems that for the weight of complexity of the guts rules and them being a thing you have to be aware of, they rarely happen. Which you could argue is good, because it means less dice rolls in any given game, but it feels bloated to me. Just consider:

    G: remote presence

    Any level of valour (courage,dogged, nwi)
    Any level of martial arts

    All ignore guts.

    In fact those rules serve to undo one of the more interesting guts related rules of Religious.

    The actual die rolling part of guts functionally acts as a layer of rules to make cheap troops less good at suppressing, or providing cheap aros.

    Personally I think I'd like to see more units make guts checks, by removing the ability to ignore it from dogged and removing the valour skill entirely (or making valour be a mod on the roll)

    That or ditch the guts check completely and make some other sort of morale system, like a panic check that occurs when a unit observes a friendly another friendly in ZOC going to null state. Just an idea, I'm not tied to it.

    How do you guys feel about Guts ? Am I talking out my ass?

    I think guts are merely an okay rule as it is at the moment . It's not game breaking, I just feel it's under utilized as a mechanic.

    Thanks for reading/skimming the wall of text :)
     
  2. Plebian

    Plebian Well-Known Member

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    I am fine with Guts. The vast majority of our models are trained soldiers or emotionless robots. Wide spread panic doesn't have a place in Infinity IMO.

    I would like some sort of change to Religious though.
     
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  3. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I think this is the crux of my point here. And ignoring guts is a nice way of making a unit feel cooler, like, check out this cool guy; he shoots aliens and doesn't afraid of anything. It just happens so much that it makes a not-small chunk of core rules mean very little.
     
  4. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Also warbands, ghazi for example, why shouldn't they make guts checks? They have fervour based on religious devotion? Cool, why aren't they using that rule rather than the thematically nebulous dogged rule?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My problem with Guts is that it is almost always preferable to fail. If models who failed Guts went Irregular for a turn or similar it'd be more interesting (while a courageous troops or troops who succeeds their roll would ignore this penalty if electing to hit the deck) it'd make an actual impact instead of "Yeah, I'll just fail it so you get to waste more orders"
     
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  6. Plebian

    Plebian Well-Known Member

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    There have been many times where forcing a model to fail guts has won me the game because I am then able to achieve the objective unmolested.

    And dogged just means the people are so courageous they fight on after being mortally wounded. It has nothing to do with religion.
     
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  7. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I know that, but I was just questioning the mechanical flavour of dogged on ghazi for guts rolls. Why are they not using the interesting rule about religion (considering they are basically untrained conscripts) and instead using a rule about how they don't die very quickly to determine their sense of courage ?
     
    #7 Superfluid, Jan 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  8. Plebian

    Plebian Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea. I have many problems with Ghazi, and that is one of them.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Forcing a suppressive model, tough sniper, or multi wound HI back into cover is pretty significant. As an NCA and Acon player, my game behind and ends with aggressive AROs to allow table coverage. When someone forces my Swiss Missile back into total cover, even when she's ARM8 with TO and 2 Wounds left, it can have a big impact in the game.
     
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  10. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Yeah absolutely, I've had nisse snipers and suppressing croc men bottle it and hide at the worst time and I think it's a great bit of narrative that unfolds. And actually succeeding a guts check when you need it is great drama too.
     
  11. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    I think it's fine as is, I've had it come up where Panzerfaust armed troops/supfire troops are forced back and it becomes a significant change to what's happening on the table, but I do agree it feels like a lot of troops that are actively used which just ignore it. Especially when you consider that some skills contain V: Courage as a nested rule.
     
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  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I guess CB didn't like the idea of Remotes that are big on self preservation, or space samurai who throw themselves prone during a banzai charge. And when you break it down, troops that do precisely as they're told is a pretty reasonable Hallmark for future special forces.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is an interesting question, indeed many units ignore it, but it is not the vast majority by far though in sectorials the percentage of such reliability is from time to time intriguing.

    But learning to utilise it is important, for example using it to push a TAG out of the way, even if it is impossible to harm, getting it out of LoF can be equally effective.
     
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  14. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Sure, and I agree to a point. I don't to see super elite troopers dropping and running at the first instance of gunfire. And especially with Cubes troopers are sold the lie that they could be immortal if they die valiantly so they shouldn't fear death. But I don't consider Ghazis particularly elite, nor kuang shi.

    If Guts checks became more prevalent you might indeed find more players saying "Hey, i'm going to start taking REM heavy lists because my troopers kept ducking for cover at inopportune moments in my last games" at which point you then see more hackers. You also see 'unhackable' factions get a bit more penalized for having no mechanized 'fearless' troopers.

    I think Retreat is a really nice morale mechanic actually, when the bulk of your force is destroyed you get a cinematic rout at tail end of the game. It also forces the game to close quicker once a side has claimed enough of an advantage.

    Guts though...

    Maybe if failing a guts check penalized you somehow for the rest of the turn? So choosing to automatically fail made you more susceptible to further attacks, so you would want to pass a check even if you were in the open?
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    The rule has little to do with panic or something to that effect. It's about taking cover when shot at. I assure you every trained soldier's reflex is to do exactly that.
    It's just that in Infinity, successful guts rolls matter the most during reactive turn for specifically placed pieces. They tend to be sacrificial lambs at those times, and we want them to give their last as such.

    Because they are supposed to take more than one hit before they die, as opposed to, I dunno, stay where they are when they miraculously survive an attack for no reason because 90% of the time it's so that if they can achieve something in their current position, they can do so from outside the LoF as well, if not better.

    Designing rules around fluff first and foremost, on the other hand, is a recipe for disaster.

    That's pretty much the primary case where it matters, a high quality ARO piece. Arguably even bigger deal for something like Maghariba which doesn't impose extra negative mods relying on armor instead. Pretty funny that it's Manned TAG that gets 360 in this game, but then again, I believe that functions more or less locked to non-optimized profiles is important for keeping Infinity's balance intact.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The fact that the Swiss fucking Guard don't have Religious is one of the weird things about Infinity...
     
  17. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Could you rephrase your first paragraph for me please, i'm being thick and I can't parse what you mean :(

    I'm fine with them taking more than one hit before they die, but why does them taking more than one hit before they die allow them to decide to choose to pass/fail any given guts check? Why not use the religious rule for that? It still allows them to sprint across open ground and not die, it just doesn't let them hide around corners by default when making ARM rolls because they are so zealous.

    Top-down game design has its place, and the more evocative a mechanical/thematic pairing the easier it is to remember and makes the narrative more cogent.
     
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  18. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    You probably seek for something like loss of lieutenant or retreat situation, both having a very strong effect on the game (well except for some battle hardened space monkeys). Guts is not really a spread of panic, rather the fact that any sane people (yes, there are not that many sane people among Infinity soldiers) does not want to die and will try to hide when bullets start coming at him.
     
  19. Flipswitch

    Flipswitch Sepsitorised by Intent
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    XCOM Rookie Panic when.

    When I sepsitor a Fusilier I fully expect the guy next to him to scream and cap the third Fusilier in the back of the head.

    I need to play some more Tohaa which are a bit more suseptible to Guts than say, Combined. I got VERY used when playing Onyx of thinking that Guts is something that happens to other people.
     
  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a history buff and I'm also a too lazy of an ass to google it, but aren't RL Swiss Guards were employed as Pope's protectors because they were very reliable mercs and not because of their religious fervor? I may be super dead wrong there, sorry in advance if that's the case.

    That's because I'm bad at English on top of having very unfocused mind, sorry.

    My main points were:
    1) I'm retarded and forgot about Dogged being V:, and failed to account for Courage working both ways.
    2) Crunch over fluff in gameplay pls;
    3) Ghazis actually prefer to break LoF and keep being ZoC annoyance, and they don't have much to threat people outside of ZoC range with anyway, so ability to not fall back is not of much use to them (see p.1). They do appreciate total control over Guts rolls though.

    Because CB likes skill nesting, even though it provides no real benefit and can cause headache for future generations of designers. Grr nesting hat nesting.
     
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