1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Does anyone think N4 Guard is a good idea?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,247
    Likes Received:
    5,851
    Title. Was this ever playtested?
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    2,648
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Hah.
     
  3. Doppelgganger

    Doppelgganger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    73
    Do you mean andromeda is a problem?
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,247
    Likes Received:
    5,851
    Sure, but the mechanic in general. I've been messing around with my Starmada and Andromeda is just... dumb.

    I think the mechanic itself interacts with the ARO mechanics in a bad way.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  5. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    925
    would have been okay with the old delay on sixth sense; as it is is broken
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,202
    Likes Received:
    5,077
    S4 can go prone mine that rolls FtF, with Martial Arts 2 or 3 and Melee skill in excess of 20, and can move 4' (10cm) per short order...

    The problem per se would not be exactly Guardian, which I agree is quite... excessive (specially compared to Thrown weapons... same final effect, different approach, and throwing a weapon is like shooting with a grenade, so no MA nor Melee gets involved), but the design for Andromeda, a unit that went from "doesn't sell" (even as the only melee unit in OSS) to "must have" in the span of 2 reviews. In particular, the +6 to Infiltrate a NWI SMG+Zapper/BSG specialist with D-Charges for +3pts over the not infiltrating profile...

    In the end, Andromeda is like a Fiday with D-Charges and NWI, with a threat radius of her ZoC and Mimetism in exchange for smoke and no marker state, but what makes her a headache to deal with and a no-brainer investment is simply that, placing her in front of a Fireteam (or TAG or another big prey), you ensure said Fireteam will not act or your opponent will burn orders to save it.
    And then, of course, she can perform objectives...

    All in all, I'd say that Andromeda enters into the "broken" department because of the Infiltration +6 (infiltrating on 15 on the opponent's side), and that she has a big kit.

    The other Guardian users (Boronin & Alpha) are currently much less of an issue, because where they deploy, and their role as Lts, where Guardian acts as a protection against assassinations instead of a pressure tool.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,481
    Eh.... Double Marker state and the no-roll deploy in opponent's half is what makes the Impersonators bonkers. Andromeda has none of that.
    What's bonkers about Andromeda is that she manages to be cheaper than a Hulang or Oniwaban. Guard itself as a skill doesn't work well mechanically, sure, but even without Guard Andromeda would be very cheap.
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,202
    Likes Received:
    5,077
    You see the tree, but miss the forest, so to speak.

    An Impersonator deploys, without rolling, on the same bracket as the Infiltration +6 Andromeda(and I doubt anyone has picked her without that skill...), and can try to deploy in the enemy DZ, but aside from that, Fidays and Speculos have smoke, and need to either shoot (and they are not the greatest shooters, plus not all of their loadouts include templates) or close into a single model for the kill, after which it will be on the open with all that it entails. They become speed bumps if their player goes second (or doesn't end the first turn with the IMP dead or outside of Marker state), sure, bt because they can almost sure-kill ONE target.

    Andromeda just rolls for infiltration at 15, regardless of scenario (Biotecvore and the like overwrite the normal deployment rules for outside of your DZ with a -3, regardless of side of the table), and then gets to sit there, prone or not, ready to ARO her chosen target... and projecting her presence into her ZoC, which goes into the enemy's DZ for free. Every time a unit she can see inside her DZ activates, she can go for Melee 21 AM3 at either DAM13 DA or DAM14 AP+EXP, or place a template (BSG or Zapper), or shoot (SMG or BSG) with BS12 and Mimetism (and cover, more than likely). Plus she will be the last unit you place, bar specific lists (TAG list, usually).

    Or maybe the others are overcosted, but yeah, Andromeda is a one-woman fixer. Aside from hacking, Engineering and Doctoring, she can do everything.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,481
    Note that I wrote, specifically, about the second Marker state? The second Marker state makes all the difference for the real Impersonators and the Inferior Impersonators, the latter that I think are very reasonable. She behaves a lot closer to an Oniwaban, but there are very important differences there, too, which should be obvious to anyone with a few games under their belt.
    It's more that you're calling it a forest, but I'm telling you it's a corn field. The behaviour it forces from your opponent is very different and the way they behave on the offensive is also different. There's very little to compare between them. Basically the only comparison I can draw between a Fiday and Andromeda is that their costs are pretty blatant factional discounts.

    Honestly, it wouldn't be so bad if she didn't have D-Charges on the infiltrating profile, as much as I agree with the unspoken suggestion in the first post.

    As a small note to anyone struggling with her: she can't ever use Guard through smoke.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  10. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    725
    Actually, she will be at 12 in those scenarios if she tries to deploy on the opponent's side:
    upload_2021-8-9_8-47-51.png

    "Any MOD applied to the Roll by a Special Skill, piece of Equipment, or rule will be added to this roll." So you start with a PH-3, add an additional -3 due to the rule for Infiltration deploying on the opposing side of the table, then add the +6 from her skill to end up at just a flat PH roll (which for her is PH 12).

    Still better than what Impersonators need to roll on PH-3, but they can deploy INSIDE the enemy deployment zone on the same PH-3 roll (as their normal WIP check that gets replaced has no modifiers to further apply).
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    637
    i though you meant the bold part the same way as when we say a Crazy Koala that is set has a threat radius of its ZoC.
    But Mahtamori said it doesn't work thru smoke, so I had to double check why since it works arounds wall.

    The rule is LoF+ZoC. I'd call that a LoF up to 8" threat. Which happens to be the same threat range as a Thrown Mode CCW (Trench Hammer and Vorpal CCW), they need LoF and have a max range of 8". With the big difference that Andromeda makes a ranged CC Attack using CC stats+Mods unlike the Thrown CCWs.

    All in all, a strange ability. But as it needs LoF, it is similar as someone (like say Yojimbo) rounding the corner to charge you in CC, he makes a CC roll, you ARO with a BS attack. The difference here is that Andromeda only needs to peak around the corner (keeping cover MOD) rather than go around it and reach your base contact.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,481
    Oh, I should probably write in plain why: Andromeda (nor Alpha) hasn't got MSV, so she can't gain LOF through smoke. BS Attack, specifically, is the only LOF-requiring skill type allowed when attacked through smoke, and Guard is not a BS Attack but it does require LOF.
     
    Savnock and Dragonstriker like this.
  13. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    752
    I think the massive proliferation of template weapons has made the two other guard units much less lackluster than Andromeda. Since she can tank at least one bad template aro before going down unlike the other two. The other two, though extremely deadly with their ranged CC will just have whoever reaches them blast them twice with a shotgun, or some other template.

    I think the guard skill change has otherwise been fantastic. It's certainly made Voronin much more viable to take as an attack piece. But he does suffer badly from too many direct templates being around.

    I do wish sixth sense still let you hold your aro in ZoC. As it mostly feels pretty useless at protecting you from attacks from behind since dodge is your only option on someone who peeks you from behind.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,817
    Likes Received:
    13,481
    if you have Sixth Sense you'll be able to respond to attacks regardless of facing, making BS Attack or Guard ARO declarations valid if the opponent decides to attack you with their second Short Skill.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  15. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    725
    If you have sixth sense, just declare BS attack.

    If they attack you with Guard (or shoot you), you get to shoot them back, as per Sixth Sense you get to respond to attacks from outside your LoF with a 360 arc.

    This is due to the new ARO rules letting you declare any ARO you want, only checking if they are valid during resolution (note that you still need to have an valid ARO opportunity to actually declare them; the new rule letting you check the ZoC of the active trooper is there to clarify what does/does not have an ARO opportunity. You also can't declare BS attack if the opponent has total cover from you).
     
    Savnock and Robock like this.
  16. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    752
    Oh? I didn't know that. I thought the ARO had to be valid at delcaration. That does make Voronin a bit better. Though both he and the Alpha will still fold in half from just about any template attack.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,247
    Likes Received:
    5,851
    Agreed. What do you think would be the best way to communicate this to CB?
     
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,202
    Likes Received:
    5,077
    Those don't stack, it has been confirmed for some time now...

    I simply tire of writing values in cm and inches. LoF is a requirement of her skill, range is coincident with ZoC.

    The difference here is that she is threatening ALL enemy troops she can see up to 20cm/8''. Joyimbo (or any melee trooper, like Impersonators) can threat only enemy troops they can reach in a dodge, or pack in a single BSG template. And she doesn't care they are spread, she can reach them with melee skill (the Throwing Weapons, again, use PH)

    She can dodge for 10cm/4'' against anyone acting in her ZoC (unless Stealth, if we need to mention every single possibility on each post...). And the smoke needs to be thrown so she can't FtF the grenade with Guardian, which in itself can be a forced expenditure of enemy orders...

    There were too many shenanigans and rules holes, FAQs, exploits... depending on that. And there are very few units with 6th sense now, aside from Fireteams.

    Like any melee specialists faced with a template weapon, no matter how good are they. That's why units like Jaguars, Yuan Yuan, Morlocks, etc... are so widely used: you don't care if they fall against a chain rifle, they are always a good change. Or units like Achilles or Ajax, which can tank most of those templates (Continous damage is still dangerous, however).
     
    Robock likes this.
  19. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    725
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  20. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    938
    I hated Guard in N3 because to me it is dumb to have 2 models on 1 base when they could just be synced. But someone at CB thought Voronin with a dog would look cool so they literally invented a rule to make the model happen ( insert facepalm emoji here ). Now the rule was crap, models didn't sell so they had to make it borderline OP to start selling models. Instead of doing sensible thing and discontinue 2 models and delete that stupid rule from the game in N4. 2 worst rules in the game are guard and frenzy and I can't decide which I hate more.
     
    Robock and Hecaton like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation