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Does anyone else strongly dislike playing fireteams?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Challenger, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    While I'm not sure if you were trying to make a different point (I absolutely agree that a Suryat Core is almost never the answer), I did want to point out that a single Suryat can join a vanguard fireteam, so:

    Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    MORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    MORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    MORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    MORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    SURYAT Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 39)

    2 SWC | 95 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Shave off 28 points if all you want is the burst and you don't need another Core.
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Hah forgot Morats got the mixed Link too, whoops.
    Point still stands, a BS13 HRL with 14 points zero utility Linetroopers is nowhere near the efficiency of a Grey+Volunteers, Orc+Fusiliers or Brigada+Alguaciles.

    Would be way less of a problem with Links capped at 3.
     
    #82 Teslarod, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  3. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Well, at least you can get some utility out of those line troops by adding a couple points here and there. A full Suryat link has exactly zero specialist options!
     
  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    While she is a powerful option Emily isn't a band aid for Starco, yes they have limited MSV2 (Brawler), No native -6 mods, warband spam, or free orders or a power LT. But frankly Starco doesnt need them or Emily to be effective or to have her "fix" anything. 3 of these things are more crutches than anything else, But starco's strength is in the overall model lineup, it's less about one piece doing all the heavy letting and winning the game like a kriza or mowang, but more a bunch of individual units enabling each other to do their job. Some of the more effective lists I've played and seen played don't actually use Emily beyond bait or to scalpel out a model or two as it is largely a waste of ordrs to carpet bomb the table.

    They're "Lacklustre" mostly due to having counter play beyond just shooting them, and having a very narrow focus, with little ability to do much else, which is why they often mix with other stuff like Kusanagi and a Rev. Healer.

    It still boggles my mind what that particular team happened, the Kriza is a one person Fireteam, and doesn't get the bonuses anyway, and the Hollowman can get the bonuses using it's own Haris.

    Taking a hacker and an engineer is hardly a down side as most people would be taking them anyway (especially in Nomads) to authorise flash pulse bots, TR bots, sensor bots, combat REMs and to do classifieds. Additionally, if they want to waste orders shooting something that's already dead instead of doing something that would contribute to them winning the game I'm okay with this, and if they don't I stand it back up, either way it's a win. Unlike it's it's LI counterparts the linked REM is less vulnerable to MML2 units, Red Furies and other high burst shock weapons that we are seeing more of.

    While the Brigada does cost significantly more than a single Alguacile, you do get increased BS, increased durability in arm and wounds, and the Brigada isn't going to run away from a fight unless you want it to due to courage. Previously you need to buy 4 more Brigada to get core bonuses on them now you only need to spend the equivalent in points for 1 more Brigada to get these bonuses. Standard MB fire team is around 200 points where as a Alguacile + MB team is less than half that.
     
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  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes, Starco can work without Emily, that is not my point. I tryed to explain that Emily fills some various places that are not filled in starco thanks to her build. She is a mimetic specialist with middle range weapon (thanks to the x-visor) for the alguacile fireteam (which have not much access to middle range weapons), and can deal in active both with revealed TO and bunch of ODD. CoC is a bit extra (not very needed, but it is ok in her), and can help with heavy TAGs like not much other troopers in the sectorial can.

    The hacker haris are lackluster because overall hacking is lackluster (but KHD, that works as supposed to) and CB didn't want to give much power to them, just that. They know that hacking can bring lots of claim from heavy infantry focused lists, so better let people with the not-so-useful hability don't use it, than get claims from the factions they don't want to get claims from. You can also see how the "most powerful hacker" in the game cannot link in fireteams with who works toe to toe in in the lore, but they are forced to go to another fireteam, where instead of bringin some synergy, they go worse
     
  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I don't disagree on any particular point.

    Just saying, you claimed line trooper heavy weapons are overshadowed because of mixed link options with REMs or Heavy Infantry. I claimed no, they aren't, because they offer cheap or unique options compared to mixed link counterparts. None of your above points are wrong, but doesn't change the fact that line trooper heavy weapons offer a useful, healthy alternative to mixed link options.
     
    #86 barakiel, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't dislike playing fireteams but the most enjoyable games of infinity to me probably have been vanilla vs vanilla
     
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  8. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Big 5-man cores tend to be annoying to move around with and control, and can slow the game down considerably when they take an active role. I also greatly dislike the very common trend of "these 3 or 4 cheap mooks are here to feed orders and fireteam bonuses to 1 or two premium troopers." I like fireteams more when it's clear that they're designed around each trooper fulfilling a purpose. Haris teams tend not be so bad in that regard, since they trim a lot of the fat.

    What I would like to see is for sectorials to expand beyond being platforms for fireteams. I feel White Banner would be a perfect case of a faction much in need of such diversification, since the fundamental elements we know for it currently don't play well with fireteam design in the first place. Give sectorials more additional, novel trooper profiles that allow them to function with utility or synergy not capable in vanilla factions.
    What I don't want to see is any more of the Gwailo situation though. I don't mind specific profiles being restricted to a sectorial, but I don't want troopers being blocked off from vanilla entirely, even if the profiles available are heavily pruned.
     
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  9. EccentricOwl

    EccentricOwl Well-Known Member
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    I'm embarrassed to admit it but I really don't like them.

    ARGUMENT FOR: the positioning of fireteams is a part of mastering the game
    ARGUMENT AGAINST: I always forget, my players always forget, it's fiddly moving five models at once and takes more time than one unit

    PRO: they allow interesting and unique bonuses
    CON: those bonuses are often the only reason you play them in order to power up a particular model, rather than because you think it's thematic or fun. (I know that that's part of a larger argument, but this is again , only my opinion)

    PRO: they allow sectorials to be good
    CON: sectorials are an easy way to "get into" the game, since you have a more limited pool of units, so more new players choose them. but the amount of rules needed to truly master them is staggering. I'd argue punishing. Infinity's rules are complicated - good, but complicated.

    PRO: they let you use units that might get overlooked in vanilla
    CON:often times you still won't use them, because the limits on fireteams mean there's sometimes a "correct" choice. I'd never run a Zhayedan Core, even though I think they're fun, cool, and powerful.

    PRO: they allow uniqueness between sectorials
    CON: they definitely do, but that seems kind of like a crutch? hard to explain it. but by giving everyone fireteams, the Qapu Khalqi is kind of neutered in its uniqueness. (That's a smaller gripe)


    Ultimately, the rules thing is my biggest problem. There are so many interactions - interesting ones, without a doubt - that it makes my job teaching them very difficult. I don't enjoy teaching them, either, because there are so many edge cases; I'm constantly saying "that's what happens, with tktktktk exception here. Anyway, where were we?"

    However, I do like that they're in the game. My changes probably wouldn't be popular. I'd be mollified if they were just simplified.


    /end rant
    load "zork"
     
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  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Also, troopers that are already independently potent and dominant within their factions are the troopers that specifically should be the last to be considered for wildcard trooper status. It's strange and annoying to see CB buff some already amazing troopers by giving them wildcard status, while leaving others that kind of just... suck... to the wayside.

    For example, Kamau were already great without wildcards, and would still be very good if they were stuck with their own for fireteam options. So why are they set to be wildcards when the ORC, most exceptionally known for just how mediocre it is, is left without the option?
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's the worst part. Fireteams are complex and change a lot of the core rules, so you need to have a solid grasp on the core rules before you start using fireteams.

    So a new player is either learning the rules poorly by playing fireteams early, or is handicapping themselves by not taking fireteams.
     
  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    That's why I tend to advise Vanilla to start. Easier to build to what fits you as you get a feel for the game too.
     
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  13. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Of course, that can present its own source of problems. Vanilla presents a much wider breadth of options, which makes understanding trooper roles and list building a lot harder. And with less reliance on raw firepower, vanilla lists tend to build towards more nuanced unit interactions.
     
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    on the flip side it doesn't restrict newer players on what they want to play with, and early on the only roles you really need to focus on are gunfighters and button pushers, and its fairly obvious which is which.


    It just shifts the focus to other gunfighters that you need to be careful with which reinforces basic skills like positioning, and having less of a focus on straight gun fighting is a good thing, there's more to winning a game of infinity that applying a B5 HMG to the face and starting in vanilla teaches this well.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I feel more reliant on HMGs in vanilla and many low-burst weapons like missile launchers (that you pay through the nose for) just doesn't work. If they hit they tend to do damage, but that's a shaky if.

    What I like with Fireteams is how they make a larger width of units and profiles viable
     
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  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Both Sectorials and Vanilla have advantages and disadvantages. A lot depends on the teacher... Whether it's a veteran player helping someone new, or the player themself as they try to absorb new information.

    I personally like that Sectorials make factions feel more manageable. Thinking back to when I started, Vanilla felt very overwhelming, and there were a lot fewer units per faction back then.

    "Themed forces" trading variety for specialized rules isn't something that's unique to Infinity. I think most tabletop gamers recognize that a narrow microcosm of units should naturally get additional rules to compensate. I think this is a very natural, easy choice for gamers to make. It's just up to them which they want to pick, and then up to the teacher to help that decision.
     
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  17. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Fair point. I forget that other factions have easily double what my Vanilla Aleph does for units.
     
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    This was very true for me as well... though it helped that the Onyx box had just come out.
     
  19. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    That's only true if you're still playing with the roster Aleph had in Paradiso N2.

    At current Aleph has 50 faction profiles. That's in the same order as PanO 54 profiles which is more or less the number each big faction enjoys and quite more than YujIng's 42 units and Tohaa's 33 profiles.

    Actually Aleph is extremely well rounded with really powerful and flexible units and access to almost all technologies. Furthermore, so effective that ITS shows the faction needs a nerf for the sake of game balance.
     
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  20. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm so used to my army display that I don't notice the amount of profiles anymore. Could also be due to the number of Characters padding it up.