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Does anyone else strongly dislike playing fireteams?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Challenger, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    True, I was considering the two fairly common extreme cases of HI (2w, 3 arm, 3 bts) core vs LI (1w, 1 arm, 0 bts) where for the latter 5% more likely to fail the save doesn't quite stack up against being put into a state where you can no longer ARO at all.

    There's other considerations, of course, such as Doctor in some metas being a higher priority to bring.

    But generally it's the fact that you can be bombarded quite competently from 24" that makes it vile, not the ammo itself.
     
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  2. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I've always seen access to both EM and normal LGL ammo as something that impacts TAG lists in a bad way rather than some generally stupid combo. Against most REMs it doesn't matter that much since you can as well use Normal against REMs, they are basically as soft to it as to EM.

    When it comes to HI, I would say it boils down to general matter of EM being a silver bullet against their supposed toughness rather than something specific to EM/Normal LGLs. If it's okay that EM works this well against HI, it's probably okay-ish that a single model can disable both HI link and an Engineer the same way a single model with Normal LGL can disable both primary targets and appointed Doctors.


    ...Have I mentioned I wish Engineering away negative Statuses was affecting everyone Engineer contacted with this Order instead of just a single target? I think I have. If this was the case, consideration of having both EM and Normal LGL on efficient shooter would be more serious for HI link lists.
     
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  3. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Why HGL-armed TAGs don't generate quite as much whine, then? They get almost the same chances of hitting as LGL links when firing in 0 MOD rangeband (Squalo hits on 9, same as Druze link), with better gun - damage 15 vs 13. And they can do it out to 32" - even less movement needed... I mean, I get it - more points, less orders, worse AROs; but it's not like you can't get yourself both a Squalo in 10-order group to dump in HGL and a decent ARO/secondary attackers/specialists to support it.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It also doesn't have a +3 and is mounted on a unit with fairly sizeable innate counters, but please don't mention it too loudly when near Yu Jing players, they might get a serious case TAG-envy...
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good call.


    They used to, when every faction had a TAG with an HGL loadout. Then N3 dropped and almost everyone lost their HGL (Squalo and Lizard are the only TAGs to retain the HGL.

    Also, the HGL does not have a +3 range, and isn't in a link for an additional +3BS. An XVisor LGL (Druze or Emily) is Spec-firing on 10s out to 24". An HGL is Spec-firing on 9s or 8s.
     
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  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Emily and friends is trivially easy to deal with any shotgun or melee troop that can get close enough. Most of the time they are hitting on 10's vs flat phys when firing on opposing fireteams, so the chances of landing meaningful hits is low, which to get 10's requires it to move into the midfield. It's also one of the few tools available to deal with certain things in StarCo.

    It is also adds in a good counter to fireteams.

    Though like other certain units in the game It does highlight how utterly stupid and in need of reworking fireteams bonuses are.
     
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't think this is a Fireteam problem, this is giving an X-Visor spec-fire weapon to a BS13 model problem.
     
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  8. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Druze LGL has BS 12, so in full FT they hit on 9. Just like the Squalo. (And, at least for Normal ammo, +2 to strength of the weapon completely alleviates any difference in accuracy between Squalo and Emily - what you gain in chance to hit you lose two times over in chance to produce any effect).

    My point was about ammo options being more important than X-Visor here. So I see the following options here:
    1) Either we are shooting in +3 range, and so X-Visor is just a cherry on top. This is, apparently, not the case.
    2) It isn't, X-Visor is important. And we are back to HGLs being just as effective, but somehow less annoying.
    3) It's not about SpecFire hitting on 9+, it's about versatility.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

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    A Squalo is twice the price and provides four less orders than an Emily+Alguaciles link. It's not as inherently spammable due to more limited order supply and is actively worse at protecting itself. It isn't a menace to every HI and TAG on the field. It sits on a 2.5 SWC cost as opposed to Emily's 0.5. It's Hackable, in a very dangerous way due to anti-TAG possession programs. It isn't a Specialist on its main profile, relying on a vulnerable WIP10 Specialist Operative Pilot instead of being WIP14, FO and CoC at the same time.

    Basically, the reason that the Squalo's effective artillery isn't that bad is because its player has to pay a lot to access it, and creates several real vulnerabilities for their list. Fireteam Cores have absolutely zero cost beyond playing a Sectorial Army instead of Vanilla, and their suite of bonuses can be worth more than a link member's entire point value. Emily in particular is a standout becuase of her ridiculous versatility and effectiveness compounded by cheap linking and comparatively low price (Does she really seem like she's 0.5 SWC over and on point parity with an ORC Boarding Shotgun?), but in general you won't find a Vanilla piece outshining a Core Linked peer outside of the Combined Army and Core Linked pieces don't limit the list's options like solo elites tend to.
     
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  10. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Most folks still dislike playing against the Squalo. Speculative Fire is, in itself, a risky mechanic. The Squalo HGL basically asks "who can do better in a 1-dice vs 1-dice faceoff", which isn't especially fun. It's counterbalanced by the fact, as mentioned, that the Squalo eats up a good chunk of a list. You're paying a lot of points and SWC to access that capability.

    The danger of Starco and, to a lesser extent, Druze, is that you can have one Combat Group bombard while still having a decent secondary group that can get objectives, deploy mines, and generally perform those key additional roles.

    That being said, I don't think this is a balance issue. It's really the same thing as an Impersonator, or a TO missile ARO, or anything else that can wipe out a link if you misdeploy. You need to be really sure you don't misdeploy, but as long as you don't present a juicy target, the statistical likelihood of being crippled by an E/M LGL lobbing shots is pretty low.
     
  11. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agreed. The big benefit of SpecFire is when you can catch multiple units under the template for more chances of not wasting the order. It isn't generally that hard to position units, even in a fireteam, so that the template isn't a major threat.
     
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  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I've never liked Fireteams. I've always thought the first Human Sphere should have done nothing but make different AVAs for troops. Vanilla could only have 1 Celestial Guard and ISS could have 5, and 0 Zhanshi, etc. It should be all about having or not having access to certain troops. If anything, I would have given the whole force a certain rule akin to the Morat or Shasvastii rule. But these rules would only apply when playing that sectoral. For instance, Druze: all non-remote figures have Fatality Level 1. This would include troops that wouldn't have it in other sectorals or Vanilla. Druze would not have this rule in Ikari, QK, Haqqislam.
     
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  13. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 Well-Known Member

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    I like playing aggressive fireteams. The problem is, if you go 2nd, your opponent will find a way to lay some templates on your team before you have a chance to use them. I'm going on my 6th month of not winning my LT roll in a row and have lost at least one link team member before i can use them in EVERY game. I play Druze and have yet to use the spec fire EM grenade. After you lose that +3 link bonus, its just not worth it. At this point, i think have a 5 man link is a liability.
     
  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    If you're playing Druze can't top the team off with pretty much any other model in the list? I thought DBS' whole thing was Fireteam everything.
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If you're playing Druze, you should easily have 7-8 models that can be in that Fireteam in your list. Brawlers (the Doctor is popular), Valerya, and the clipper can all just hop in there.
     
  16. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Points above aside, taking at least a single spare filler seems to be something almost every sectorial player does these days.
     
  17. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Speaking strictly for myself...

    Fireteams are a thing that either needs to be heavily restricted or just plain made into a default state for units that don't have alternate deployment methods.
    I feel that CB has done the game a grave disservice by keeping the 'one Fireteam except for...' concept in play. It's constantly reinforced the Death Star mindset and frankly, it limits things in a way that they should recognize.
     
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  18. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 Well-Known Member

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    Oh i take extras...they die too before being able to fill the gaps.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem with simply AVA changes is that because of the order system, 1 Celestial Guard is probably all you need.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I like Infinity because it has very few rules and abilities that aren't shared elsewhere and it makes little sense that a unit should behave vastly different depending on if its recruited as part of a state taskforce or their home battalion task force.
     
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