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Does anyone else strongly dislike playing fireteams?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Challenger, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    There are some rather fun Fireteams, be it because they can do a lot of different things (HB's Asayib Core, being oldschool Asawira Haris but with slots to fit almost all fun toys Muyibs can carry), because they can act a lot (IA has those in several flavours, but always with enough orders to also enable your other pieces) or because they just kick arse.

    I guess because of that I'm back to heavily FT-dependant Sectorials despite those FTs giving me headache every time I must deploy and move them.
     
  2. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    I do not dislike playing fireteams, even tho i prefer vanilla. I can run duos, Harises and three man Cores everyday.
    Now, to answer what i thibk the real question is - yeah, it is a hassle to move whole Five Guys, Burgers and Fries around, especially when its SWC platform with cheerleaders behind, like SF Khawarij with Naffatuns.
    Toolboxy 5man isnt something avaliable to everyone, but if you can do it, then it is worth it. Muyibs come to my mind first.
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The only aggressive full Cores I run is the DoTanko I mentioned (that's usually in what I call the Samurai 7 list) or a Tai Sheng Zuyong Paintrain in IA.

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. ()
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I only run that list for fun, it doesn't have enough specialists to be very competitive.

    The IA list does better, since it has a KHD in the Core, but it still is a little light in specialists.
    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 39)
    HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army




    Exactly
     
  4. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    As for fun links that are kinda dumb, but can work, allow me to throw in the:

    Jaguar Panzerfaust....just, 5 of them

    link.

    Silly? Yes! Viable? Well shit, it's cheap so maybe!
     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I never had an issue... But then I played a full Wu Ming link, with 5 models, 1 tinbot, 2 Madtraps and a link leader token that needs to be moved every. Single. God. Damn. Order.
    I swear, at the 2nd round, each order is like pulling teeth! :dizzy_face:
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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  7. Anansi

    Anansi Achilles' Thigh Oiler

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    I don't 'hate' link teams, but they do frustrate me--mostly because 90% of them are functionally the same: Four Dudes and an HMG. Sometimes the dudes are heavy infantry, sometimes they're not, but killing them is always the same. Isolate and murder until the link loses its +3 Bull Shit bonus.

    What I hate is that Four Dudes and an HMG is the best way to go about it. It's a min-max style which gives the cheerleaders more to do than just jerk off on fire-lanes until they chafe. That's good. More active units is great, but if all the mooks are doing is carrying the HMG's ammo box then why the fuck are they linked? Every unit of a fire team should do something, whether it be specialist, gunfighter, or hacker. That's not the case right now.

    The problem stems from the ability to mix ten point light infantry with thirty or forty point heavy infantry. That's too much of a spread. Corvus needs to let go of all the mixed link team bullshit and instead stick the core fire team feature on profiles with a long list of possible roles but similar costs.
     
    #27 Anansi, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What if ever member of a Core FT had to be a different profile? Would that "fix" it, in your view?
     
  9. Anansi

    Anansi Achilles' Thigh Oiler

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    Forcing players to select unique profiles would create another level of unneeded complication.

    I'd like them to shift all fire team options to a single profile tree for ease of organization--that way I don't need to flick through five different unit cards to make a core. Then I want Corvus to cull any core option that can mix stupidly cheap units with stupidly expensive units. They can keep the mixed links, but the marriage between light and heavy-infantry needs to go. Finally, widen the options for specialists in each of these core teams so that players are encouraged to create swiss-army-knife links. More linkable doctors and engineers would help enormously.
     
  10. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    This this one of the things that I really loathe about fireteams is that it further pushes the game towards HMG is king to the exclusion to most other weapons, and that 9 times out of 10 the best way to deal with it is an opposing team. As to your second point that depends on faction, armies like CJC, USARF now, StarCo., ForCo., and a few others can build those interesting swiss army fireteams where everyone has a reason to be there.
     
  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    This is the only way to make some of those expensive units work with the way the game has moved. Sectorials were weaker across the board than vanilla in the pre-Druze world, with only a couple exceptions (ISS overperforming, PanO underperforming) and buffing sectorials by making their strengths stronger was the right move. Some units that almost never saw table are finally getting a chance to shine (Orcs, Mobile Brigadas, Minutemen are looking very viable now) because they finally can leverage their profiles once they have core bonuses.

    As a side point, in many of these armies, the mixed links are super thematic even if they're not fantastic, like the Domaru+Kempei+Keisotsu link or the Crane Train. Removing them would remove some of the flavor from the army.

    I feel like this is a contradiction to the above statement in many ways. The whole purpose of allowing beefier units into links was to create swiss-army knife links where shooting power didn't have to be sacrificed to be able to cart around a couple of specialists.
     
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  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think there is fine line balancing links. I don't think throwing a powerful unit into a link of cheap units on the face is a bad move, as it still carries the weakness of links, particularly if you need that link to move into the midfield.

    I don't think super cheap units should get wildcard for link filing however, looking at you dashat. As it removes that weakness by allowing the player to replace losses with just about anything nearby.
     
  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I guess opinions on this matter depends on what army people play.

    Coming from HB, I feel like I have not enough Core slots to fit all the guns, mines, grenades, doctors, d-charges etc. I want.

    In some other armies 1-2 SWC models and 3 cheapest profiles to accompany them is the pinnacle of what you can do, it seems.

    As for abolishing links with widely varying costs altogether... What are those terrible things CHA and QK did to you? They are barely on the radar despite formally "playing the meta". :D

    I do draw a line at RTF, admittedly. Oh, let's allow literally anyone into this link except those two guys who desperately need any help they can get, nevermind absent theme and conflict of movement options. Bleh. Disappointment of my entire Infinity "career".
     
    #33 Barrogh, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This.

    The fireteams people regularly take issue with is the Fireteam Cores that contain relatively cheap "filler" units and one of:
    * MSV2 unit with Mimetism+
    * X-visor Grenade Launchers
    (Edit: and that's mostly because of how very un-fun they are to face more than how good they are)

    Still, I think CB should avoid building sectorials around 150+ Cores, however, and put extra effort into making these expensive units work effectively in a Haris or Duo.
     
  15. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that brother Konstantinos and that Muyib GL are truly a terror. /s
    (although I wouldn't call Muyibs cheap, so that only leaves Konstantinos I guess)

    We all know which units and links you are trying to call out, why not just say it out loud? It's not like your definition leaves any space for interpretation.

    Also, it's not just "x-visor GLs", it's x-visor GLs with normal and E/M ammo. That makes them effective both against LI/REMs and against HI/TAGs, and that's why Emily and Druze are so annoying, while Muyibs are not.
     
    #35 Gunmage, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Your sarcasm is a failure because Muyib GL doesn't have X-Visor, though it is correct that you do tend to need the range of an SWC weapon to properly make use of MSV2 in general. And the value in not naming them specifically by name is because there is a high chance or risk that CB will release further such Fireteams when Epsilon gets to form a Core with Kappas, or future unknown sectorial units...
     
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  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Muyibs don't have X-Visor on any profiles but the Spitfire and HRL, do they?
     
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  18. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Okay, yes, I made a mistake about muyibs having x-visors, but I still think this is at least as much about versatility of ammo loadout than reach. Even with 5-man-linked-Emily, you don't get chances better than 1:3 of wounding the target with Normal ammo spec shots at the ranges X-Visor affects; and I'm pretty sure that unless the opponent bunches up a lot of models near a corner, you are better off firing Combi than direct-firing a GL.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    E/M is typically only better against REMs and HI, which narrows the impact it has. The issue with X-visor and Core is that it pushes the grenade launcher from a tactical chance tool to distinctly viable solution the any and all clumped models (read Fireteams) without retaliation and with minimal movement.

    Druze outside Cores, f.ex., aren't much of an issue, judging by complaints - after all hitting on 6 isn't impressive, even if it is at fairly long range.

    But you are correct that it doesn't help that the two profiles currently with access to this strategy has access to an ammo that they have a fairly high chance of IMM and ISO 50+% of the opponent's army in less than 5 orders turn 1. That only works for those of us who refuse to succumb to internet wisdom of Always-Be-Spamming-Light, though.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    It depends on 'better'. ;-)

    I generally value EM LGLs higher than normal ammo LGLs because there is usually a better chance of them failing the halved BTS Roll than an ARM Roll, and Isolated can be almost as good as Unconscious, especially against anything with multiple Wounds or that's in a Fireteam.
     
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