I'm trying to help you out see that your arguments are flawed, man. Look at what you circled. "If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies and stays outside their LoF, he does not grant AROs to those enemies." So take the following scenario: a Ninja starts his turn 9" away from a model that's facing away from him. He declares the Short Skill "Move," and then moves 4" towards the model. Checking the rule above, he declared the skill while outside of the model's Zone of Control, so stealth does not apply, and the model gets to perform an ARO, before the Ninja even gets to their second skill. This means that the second item you circled does not apply. This, obviously, is not how stealth works in game, so there must be something wrong with our reasoning, and what's wrong is that the game doesn't particularly care where along your movement you declare the skill; it applies to the whole order. As with a BS Attack, the point where the BS Attack happens from can be any point along the path, even though the actual BS attack is only declared after finishing the move. The BS attack is still considered to have been "declared" along the entire path, with the stipulation that you must make your entire Burst from only 1 point. You have had this explained, multiple times, including by one of the people who helped write the English translation of the rules, and yet you continue to persist that everyone else is wrong and only your interpretation of the rules is correct. Saying "There is literally no misreading on my part at all. The rule is not confusing, it's very strait forward." despite being told you have misread it is just being stubborn and/or intentionally obtuse. I'm honestly unsure if you are trolling or just trying to stir up trouble, but either way, in your own words, "I dont need that, this forum doesnt need that and I don't want to have to create a complaint about it."
I await official judgment from official staff of CB who make these rules. No offense to IJW, it's just he/you are not quite in that category and Inhavent forgotten that we have argued in the past and I've witnessed no one here is beyond personal bias, not even you. I know everyone here can see that not a single rule or sentence in this book conflates Declaration with Resolution, nor anything that allows for violation of Requirements or Clauses.
So are you just ignoring the "Infinity Rules Staff" label next to his name? He IS official staff of CB, and thus his judgements ARE official judgements. Why you are choosing to die on this hill is beyond my comprehension.
I think you may be confused because he used to be "the wiki guy". He is much more than that now with N4.
Stealth has nothing to do with Dodge. Nowhere in the rules is Stealth even implied to apply to Dodge. I know you don't want to believe that you're the one looking at it wrong but you and many other really are. So don't feel bad about it. I'm not attacking any of you. You guys are just wrong this time. The words I keep putting in bold are the words you guys should be looking at. I made bold and red the important word, notice where any derivative of the word Declare is. "If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies and stays outside their LoF, he does not grant AROs to those enemies." In Order expenditure Declarations are the bullet points for everything leading up to the Resolution step. But notice in the Rwsolution step, the word Declare is past-tense. Meaning not apart of the Resolution Step. Meaning Declaration and Resolution are not Simultaneous. Resolution: Check that the declared Skills, Special Skills, and pieces of Equipment meet their respective Requirements, measure all distances and Zones of Control, determine MODs, and make Rolls. If any Skill, Special Skill, or piece of Equipment does not meet its Requirements, the Trooper is considered to have declared an Idle. Notice that Declaration is past-tense meaning it is not part of the Resolution step. These two being separate is e exactly what allows for Stealth work for Movement in this situation. And okay IJW, your name is in the book, that's cool really, but you're sitting here trying say that not one but two bullet points are wrong in the rules for Stealth. If you were involved in making this rule, that's a glaring hole on you. So you were likely not involved in making this rule. Which means you're trying to say someone else at CB made this mistake out of not one but two bullet points instead of accepting that the rules arent broken. And possibly you're pushing the issue on the Order Expenditure Sequence to conflate Declarations with Resolutions. Since you were the one who quoted the Resolutions step to try and tell me I'm wrong. But I pointed out that the Resolution Step specifically mentions Declarations in the Past-tense.
"To die on this hill", "beyond your comprehension" I've clearly shown in every quotation and screenshot as to why I'm supporting play this way. Cause the rules clearly say it does. This is passive aggressive on your part, cause you're not acknowledging what the rules say. Ian has been more of a translation guy than a rules maker as far I've seen. It's good, the game needs that but he and others seem upset that I'm pointing out their reading of the rules is flawed. I'm clearly not the only person who read the rules for Stealth and saw that it worked this way. I am however the person who has the ability to look at further rules and see that key words and steps in the game have precedence.
I swear to god, if "Wuji" is Tipsword trolling as a sock puppet, I'm going to throat punch... well not him, but someone in his immediate vicinity. This dude can't possibly be that self absorbed AND pedantic. It must be satire. Must ... Be... Satire.
There are a number of issues getting conflated here. Skill Requirements For example 'The user of this Special Skill must be in his Active Turn.'. In N4, these are checked during the Resolution step. Unlike in N3, they do NOT have to be fulfilled before declaring a Skill. So you can, for example, declare a CC Attack against a Trooper that you're not currently in Silhouette contact with, and hope that when you get to the Resolution step you're in contact. As per the FAQ, there is an exception for LoF-based Requirements, which must be fulfilled on declaration. This exception is mainly due to there being a number of really messy rules situations if you can declare BS Attacks against a target that is currently outside your Line of Fire. ARO Validity For example 'Were they actually in my ZoC for me to be able to ARO?'. In N3, AROs were triggered by specific situations which allowed you to declare an ARO, leading to substantial rules issues for ZoC and Hacking Area AROs. In N4, you declare your AROs anyway, and then later in the ARO Check step you find out if the ARO became valid. Skill Declarations For example 'I declare a BS Attack, using AP Ammunition with my MULTI Rifle, allocating Burst 2 to target A and B1 to target B, firing from this point.'. Skills are declared sequentially, and resolved simultaneously. So far, so good. But the All at Once rule tells us that 'both actions are still considered to be simultaneous for all game purposes' (my emphasis) so both your Skill declarations coexist. If you declare a BS Attack and then a Move, you will count as a Trooper declaring a BS Attack, everywhere along the movement path. This will break the Trooper's attempt to use Stealth. NOTICE - please regard this as an official rules clarification. So that it's completely unambiguous: I rewrote some parts of Stealth to get them to function, and to make it (a bit) more readable. I wanted to do a full rewrite because there are a number of outstanding issues with the text (both in terms of readability and in terms of unclear concepts), but was vetoed. As these outstanding issues are coming up regularly on the forum and on FB groups etc, I've flagged it for the FAQ, and hopefully will get to do a full rewrite at last. Edited for minor typos in the examples.
And here is the provisional rules answer thread, until it's added to the FAQ: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...lth-does-the-sequence-of-skills-matter.39357/
I know there's a lot of other fires in the thread atm and I'm just going to ignore it. Sorry if I repeat what I missed when skimming. I'll also try and avoid coming across as combative. What I mean is that Stealth as a skill has an effect that happens with certain criterias (not that the "requirements" part is a specific piece of game mechanic concept that doesn't work quite like the dictionary definition of the word). For Stealth to do anything, the criteria which are written in free form sentences need to be present. So. We look at what Stealth does. Stealth is a skill that prevents you from granting AROs <when declaring Cautious Movement skill or Short Movement Skills> if outside of LOF. So if you declare Discover or Idle, you won't be causing AROs unless your opponent can see you. If you declare Dodge (which isn't a Short Movement Skill, it's a regular old Short Skill) or BS Attack, you will not have declared a skill that Stealth does anything with and will be causing Zone of Control AROs. You have so far done nothing with your skill declarations to get granted the protection that Stealth offers because you haven't declared a Short Movement Skill nor Cautious Movement. Now, the issue I think is that not only does the game allow you to declare "dumb" AROs by blatantly misjudge the zone of control by a literal mile and the game doesn't check for distance until later in the sequence, but the game also has the rule "All At Once" which instructs us quite literally that everything that happens in the order is happening throughout the order. So, if and when you move with your second Short Skill, your trooper is still declaring Dodge (not least because it hasn't resolved yet). While your Move short skill might be protected by Stealth, your Dodge isn't, so with the second Short Skill you've moved the Dodge declaration into the opponent's Zone of Control. What I mean to say is that "Stealth" is not an on-going effect that you violate and get pulled out of, it is an effect that enhances a limited set of skills - and Dodge is not one of them.
The question has been answered, thread locked. Additionally I do not appreciate the behavior showcased on the thread and I would advice against such behavior repetition.
