Dodging+move without any AROs (Stealth loop hole?)

A lot of effort, but ultimately pointless.

The order in which you declare skills doesn’t matter, except in very specific cases such as Discover + BS Attack.

Once you declare Dodge, stealth no longer applies to your entire order. If you then move into someone’s ZoC, they will be able to ARO.

 

And it looks like he's wrong

 

Go into the Stealth Rules. There is no clause that describes that and the only requirement is the unit must be in the active turn.

 

Other way around; there's no clause that makes Stealth have any effect when you declare Dodge since it's not a Short Movement Skill nor the Cautious Movement skill.

 

https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#All_at_Once <- whatever order you declare skills in doesn't matter, they're simultaneous as far as rules are concerned.

https://infinitythewiki.com/Stealth <- "However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO."

Dodge is not a Short Movement Skill, so using it means you are detectable for the entire order. Just like BS Attack, CC Attack, or literally any other Short Skill you can think up that isn't a SMS.

 

Hey man I know you think it says something there, but you misquoted the rule. You said short movement skill. The rule actually says "second short skill".

Then you also posted the link to the Order Expenditure rules. Within the ordered bullet points of Order Expenditure I've highlighted 3 important clauses for this situation. Notice it very specifically mentions first and second short skills and declarations. For an ARO to be granted it has to be valid. Just shoot with a BS Attack, there are requirements. These requirements have to be met first before a declaration of a skill can be made. That's literally why every rule has a requirements section. I know IJW has done a great service as the wiki guy for a long time. But every rule ove cited and has been cited by other including what you you wanted to cure all indicate the an a skill and AROs must meet requirements first before they can be declares. Stealth meets its requirements and does not violate it's clauses. Most of the comments seem to want ARO to violate it's requirements.

 

"Second" doesn't literally mean the second order you declare; it means that if Move is one of the two orders, and the second order (no matter when it was declared) breaks stealth, the models that would not get an ARO due to Stealth still get one.

@ijw confirmed this already

And, in case you were not aware, IJW is the guy who helps WRITE THE ENGLISH VERSION OF THE RULES. So you may want to listen when he interprets semantics.

Personally, I think the word "second" should be replaced with "other" to make misunderstandings like this impossible.

 

The four bullet points you see are the requirements for an ARO. Every single rule has requirements that have to be met and every single rule mentions that a declaration cannot be made without those requirements being met.

 

It actually literally stayes second short skill in Stealth and it the words "Declaration of Second Skill" are literally in bold. This emphasizes declaratiom takes precedence. I mean, a 5 year old could win a court case with how clear this is.

It's really simple:

Declarations cannot be made without first meeting requirements.

He is the wiki guy and he helps with english translation, that is not even close to making the rules.

 

While Stealth is a special case, in general this is completely incorrect, and is one of the big changes from N3 to N4.

Apart from LoF-based Requirements, Requirements are only checked in the Resolution step of the Order Expenditure Sequence.

Part of the same change N3 to N4 change is that you don't check the validity of whether you got an ARO until the ARO Check step of the Order Expenditure Sequence.

I politely suggest looking at the credits page in N4, or at the 'Infinity Rules Staff' text under my forum avatar, or at the provisional rules answer threads: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/tags/provisional-rules-answer/

 

@Koni
@psychoticstorm

Can one of you speak with CB staff please, maybe speak to @HellLois , I know he actually helps make the rules and either tell everyone here every single rule has to first meet its requirements and not violate any of it's clauses in order to be used. OR. Tell say that some rules get to blur the lines depending on who's interpreting them. Every single rule you guys have mentions Declarations, Requirements, First and Second Skills or Second Short Skills and some of them have clauses and none of thos clauses are violate everyone's obsession with Orders and AROs being at the same time. What is happening is a lot of people here are trying to say the Declaration of First and Second Skills is happening at the same time. A.) that's literally not possible and B.) Every thing in the game is based off of declaration, when and where a Skill is declared.

 

Again, this is not correct in N4.

Note that I think Stealth needs a rewrite to be made clearer, but that's a separate issue.

 

I've bolded in red another mention of the importance of declaration and requirement. As previously stated, in order for the declaration of Stealth to be invalidated by it's clause Dodge would have to be declared in ZoC. It's not and it never was. Notice in the Resolution step, the word declared is past-tense, referring to earlier in the order the Declaration of the First and Second Skills. The Resolution of Orders and AROs may happen simultaneously but Declarations of Orders and AROs do not happen simultaneously, which means you can only Declare an ARO if it's requirements are met.

Literally, every single rule in this game, all say the same thing and you are trying to break those rules for god knows what reason.


"6. Resolution: Check that the declared Skills, Special Skills, and pieces of Equipment meet their respective Requirements, measure all distances and Zones of Control, determine MODs, and make Rolls. If any Skill, Special Skill, or piece of Equipment does not meet its Requirements, the Trooper is considered to have declared an Idle."

 

Sure you may not like the rules but Stealth has clear Requirements and clauses just like every other rule in the game so there isn't anything wrong with stealth.

 

Telling ijw "sure you may not like the rules" is so ironic it hurts.

Do you honestly think that helllois is going to back you over ijw (and, like, everyone else) on this? It's getting embarrassing.

 

Wow. Just wow.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/That_guy

You literally have one of the guys who wrote the damn rulebook telling you how it works and you are STILL trying to rules-lawyer it.

 

Look, I'm not gonna argue the rules as written with a bunch of people who didn't make the rules, and are just jumping on the band wagon. I looked at his link for Rules provisions. Those are made for things that arent clear, have typos, or weren't even mentioned. For Stealth, it literally has one Clause referring to another. That's not a typo and it's not something that it's missing because you can't refer to something that is missing. For all your arguments, there is no "there" there...

As for IJW look man, I know you do stuff for CB but that stuff is not this stuff. Everyone here respects your years of service but you're literally trying to say that every mention of Declaration in this book happens at the same time when clearly Declarations are separate from Resolutions as perfectly shown in the Order Expenditure Sequence. I don't know of the potential pandora's box we could be getting into but generally speaking when people and or companies do this, it's not good.

So I want to ask you very strait forward, and this is important, what is it about this rule that you dont like. A the wording as I've said is very clear so its really important that you answer just this one question. Why is it that you want to change perfectly functioning rule that is this clear?

 

I would just like to point out that per your own arguments, if one DECLARES movement while outside a unit's ZoC and then subsequently moves into that unit's ZoC, that unit would get to ARO as the requirement for Stealth "If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control..." would not have been met.

Which should tell you right there that your argument isn't valid.

Does the rule need rewriting to be less confusing? Yes. Do the rules as currently written support you dodging + moving to get into Silhouette Contact without triggering an ARO? No.

Again, I point you to the All At Once rule.

 

I'm not sure if you didn't quote the whole bullet point because you were trying to be belligerent or you just read the first 14 words and thought you understood the next 18 without reading them. Not even mentioning you disregarded the relationship to the bullet point below it.

There is literally no misreading on my part at all. The rule is not confusing, it's very strait forward.

Every rule I've cited as written literally and irrefutably supports the declaration of Dodge as the first skill and move+stealth for the second skill, combined with a MOV of 6" and a Dodge +2" allowing a handful of units to engage another in 2 very specific circumstances.

You and I do not see eye to eye nor are you being honest about how clear these rules are written. People get upset about some troops having a combination of mimetism, high BS, marksmanship etc etc and the best anyone can do about that is petition CB to change those troops or those skills. This situation is exactly that situation. Every rule involved is clear and straightforward. It's the combination of these rules that make a handful of troops marginally better at engaging other troops. It's not a free attack. It's not game breaking but it's enough to make the players who want to bring those troops a little more happy about bringing those troops. If you can't see it for what it is that's fine. But please stop responding to me because at this point several of you have are starting to try and attack my character instead of the validity of the evidence I'm presenting. I dont need that, this forum doesnt need that and I don't want to have to create a complaint about it.

Have a good day, hopefully when all this is cleared up by the people who made the all the specific rules involved in this situation you benefit in the marginal way I described.

 

You've attacked me before without provocation from so even responding to you is precarious. I know you dont like me so there might be bias here.

But here goes. Your argument doesnt work because. At the time and place of the Declaration of Dodge no ARO is granted to the other troop. No rule comes even remotely close to stating declaring Dodge cancels Stealth. The Declaration of Movement Still has Stealth. Declarations do not happen at the same time, only Resolutions. In order for an ARO to be granted, a Short Skill or Short Movement Skill (without Stealth) must be declared in ZoC. Everyone here keeps confusing the Declarative Steps with the Resolution Step and want to violate the Requirements and Clauses of multiple Rules. Not a single part of this book even implies that Declarations are considered simultaneous. Only the resolutions.