This comes from a discussion on Discord. Adding it here for discussion so I can link it in https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/n4-unresolved-rules-questions.38447/ The situation Angus has been assigned to the frozen planet of Svalarheima and been told to guard a forward position in no-man's land. While Angus is busy accruing frostbite in all extremities, two Daofei from the local White Banner regiment sneaks up on him - one is a hacker with Multi Rifle and the other carries a Boarding Shotgun. Before we behind we note that there's an old FAQ and an old example regarding mines that establishes that negative MODs to Dodge are applied on a FTF-per-FTF basis https://infinitythewiki.com/Dodge#FAQs_.26_Errata We also note that there are old answers from IJW lying around which says that a Dodge can be validated by a mine triggering from activation - f.ex. if a Hacker receives a hacking ARO and chooses to Dodge, this Dodge will be valid if there's a nearby mine that explodes because of the declaration even if the Hacker would normally fail the declaration due to Dodge' requirements. Example one. The Daofei with the BSG sneaks up behind Angus while the Daofei with the Multi Rifle leans out from a corner. When Angus attempts to Dodge, the two Daofei shoots with the BSG shooting in template mode. On Discord we agreed that Angus gets to Dodge at PH vs the hacker and PH-3 vs the BSG due to the rule "If Dodging a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker." Example two. The Daofei with the BSG sneaks up behind Angus while the Daofei with the Multi Rifle leans out from a corner. When Angus attempts to Dodge, the two Daofei shoots with the BSG shooting in direct AP mode. On Discord we couldn't agree if Angus would get the PH-3 vs the BSG due to "In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF." or not. Example three. The one that's a bit absurd. The Daofei with the BSG sneaks up behind Angus while the Daofei with the Multi Rifle leans out from a corner. When Angus attempts to Dodge, the two Daofei simply keeps moving. On Discord we couldn't agree if Angus would get the PH-3 vs the BSG due to "In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF." or not, but it seems a bit strange that this would apply versus a unit that doesn't even generate an ARO.
As a small note, there's some values involved in what interpretation you prefer. Of course, if you are in Angus' position, you'd prefer to not get the -3 from the BSG Daofei, but beyond that it's also about whether you consider that Angus deserves a favourable reading to allow him to "catch up" after his mistake or if the Daofei deserves it for having made the extensive tactical movement to enable this pincer attack. I.e. do you reward tactical play or do you offer a handicap. We did agree that the rules are not clear cut and that no one would claim one interpretation to be rock solid and the other not, I should say!
Example A is bullet 2, example B is bullet 1. In Example 3 is there an enemy activated in LoF? If yes, there is no MOD.
Erm... I did quote the rules in question, but are you saying that whether a trooper suffers a negative MOD from having a unit in their ZOC that they can not draw LOF to depends on if they are attacked or not? What do you base that on?
The situation should be this one: Blue is Anguss, facing as displayed (facing Red) Red and Green are the two DaoFei. They are both in ZoC of Anguss. Is this right? Green has a BSG, Red a MULTI Rifle. First Skill. G and R move in position as displayed. ARO step. Anguss declares Dodge. Second Skill. R shot with MULTI Rifle, G shot with direct template more. Resolution. There are 2 distinct rolls confontations. First is a FtF vs R. This is not modified. Second is a Normal Roll vs G. Since Anguss does not see the enemy, this bullet "If Dodging a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker." is to be taken in consideration, but it is only against the template. If Anguss (PH 10) rolls 7 or less, he dodges the BSG but still needs to beat the rolls from R. If Anguss rolls 8-10, he doesn't dodge the BSG ans still needs to beat the rolls from R. If Anguss rolls 11+, well... MEEEEEDIIIIIC!!! Here again, the MODs are the same. Only difference is the bullet point involved for the attack from out of LoF. This time it's the "In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF." MODs for rolls are for the roll against THAT target. They are not widely spread to all the opponent involved! This is different. But again... First Skill. G and R move in position as displayed. ARO step. Anguss declares Dodge. Second Skill. G and R move again. Does Anguss have LoF to at least one active model during their activation? YES => Dodge at PH NOPE => Dodge at PH-3 I don't really see why it could be different.
So... why does Angus not get the MOD in the third example but does get it in the second one? What in the rules in your opinion is it that makes the MOD not apply in that sequence of events? It's the same sequence of events and the same reason for the MOD, only difference is that in number two Angus is also attacked (that is a face to face) which isn't mentioned as a qualifier in the rules for the Dodge MODs. If the Daofei BSG would be moving without Stealth on his own, Angus would be making a Normal Roll on PH-3. The reason for the argument is that in order to Dodge you need to succeed your roll, meaning all comparisons must succeed, and if the comparison versus the Daofei BSG has a negative MOD that effectively makes the roll to be allowed for Angus to move also is a PH-3 normal roll. Arguably, Examples two and three should be forcing the same negative MODs (if any) on Angus, not different ones. What I meant with that it is "a bit absurd" was that the Daofei BSG was implied to be moving with Stealth and as such didn't even provoke an ARO but could still be read as forcing a negative MOD because the MODs for Dodge isn't written taking into account whether any of the opponent's that causes the negative MODs even generate an ARO.
I obviously considered it all withoult stealth. Let's break it this way. When does Anguss get an ARO? 1) When an enemy acts in LoF 2) When an enemy acts in ZoC It the third example, you have 2 active enemies, one in LoF+ZoC (Red one) and one in NoLoF+ZoC (Green one) I repeat, you have an enemy acting in LoF. This is enough to claim a Dodge with the full power of Anguss PH10. It is basic rule. I see you => I Dodge => no attack => full PH. The second unit out of LoF is not even taken in account. Anguss has an ARO and can see an enemy.
I think it's a fair game balance to have the rules work like that, but I can't see how this works with the rules we have. Rules kinda don't let you choose what negative MODs you get if you have several options. It's just a list of 3 conditions that "if any of these are true, you get a penalty".
Rules are always written "in the void", they always refer to one active model vs 1 reactive model. But anyway, remember that you can declare ARO only against ONE active model (then you can get other active/inactive models in the way, but you react to just one of them). In the example 3, if you react to Red you Dodge, if you react to Green you Dodge -3. So, why should you chose to react with the penalty?
That's not true, which is something we established on Discord across an hour long feverish multi-person monologue that I don't really care to repeat. You don't source MODs selectively like that. Not only would that also have bleed-over effects on the face to face situation, but it's also strictly speaking not how the rules work. You can, for example, declare a Dodge "against" an enemy who ends up never triggering an ARO only to have the Dodge validated by a mine going off - you'll get to Dodge but you'll also get the -3 for being affected by the mine's template regardless of who your "target" is (Dodge doesn't have a target).
No, you are wrong. Red is active model, Green is a Mine. Red activates and get in the position shown. Blue Dodges. Green Mine triggers and Red open fire. Resolution FtF Red BS vs Blue PH Normal roll Bue PH-3 to avoid the mine Obviously Blue rolls 1 dice and pits that value against both effects.
You're basically saying "this is how it works if I am correct". The problem is, I'm not asking you how it would work according to you, I'm asking why you think you are correct in the first place. This is not a thread that is meant to explore how to make a house rule to solve a rules issue, but to discuss the rules issue itself and to request that CB look at this for their FAQ. I can tell you this much, your interpretation is novel enough that no one has suggested this is how it works - although as I wrote we did briefly discuss the idea that AROs are by nature make non-targeted skills targeted, but it turned out to be madness (and there's a helpful reply by IJW from 2021 which just sinks that idea even if it doesn't solve this debate).
This is not a house rule and this not not how it works according to me. It's how it works according to the rules. And if no one suggested it, maybe we all should take a step back and start reading the rules once again.
BTW, I had time to find it now... https://infinitythewiki.com/Dodge Last example, Dodge Vs enemy and mine. PH Vs enemy PH -3 Vs mine So good for my home rules, but I right?
My god, do you ever read anything you respond to? Ever?! I mentioned that in the original post! I even linked it! We've been discussing that example this whole time! No, that's not good for your house rules at all. What we are assuming from that example, since there's precious little rules for it regarding Dodge, is that each face to face is compared for their own unique MODs. This is generally speaking consistent with the (IJW's addendum to FAQ 1.2) rules for how MODs from skills work (see for example Smoke versus several troopers of whom some use Surprise Attack and some don't). It doesn't actually say much about a situation where there's no face to face involved and where it is one of the "enemy" that's generating the MOD. Quite possibly the opposite of good for your argument, as the only real difference between a Normal and a Face to Face is whether someone directly oppose it - and that would mean we treat the two Daofei exactly the same as the mine example with the exception that it won't be a Face to Face versus the Daofei Hacker. Hell, that example tells us that we are supposed to not only make a separate comparison to someone the Zhanshi is not "targeting" (note that due to sequencing, the Zhanshi would be responding to the Fusilier and thus have to target the Fusilier), but also that we are supposed to apply a -3 MOD to that specific Normal roll as well.
So tell me, where do you read that you apply the MODs in undiscriminated way in your case? Because if there are two active models 8n ZoC, one in LoF and one not, you won't find a mental sane person that claim the dodge is -3 as you wrote above. Anyway, you are welcome to play any fucking way you want, but if you are here asking for rules clarification and drop shot on whoever is explaining them... Well... I surely have better things to do than that.
The important box is worded like this... "A -3 PH MOD must be applied to the Dodge Roll in the following circumstances [...] In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF." and it doesn't have anything that would read something like this... "No MOD are applied to the Dodge Roll in the following circumstances [...] In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside LoF." It checks for something, then applies a MOD if it matches the condition. In your scenario, the conditions are always met. There is always an opponent inside of the ZoC and outside of LoF. So I do not see how the box would not be applicable. Applying the MOD to one FtF and not the other seems to be how the rules handles MODs being applied in different cases, (see Dodging vs Mines, see Surprise Attack in latest FAQ) From my understanding of the rules (and with tidbits on intent from previous rulings on other things...) Example 1: Dodge no MOD vs target in LoF and same roll versus the target in the back, but this one with a -3 applied. (Because first bullet point of Important box is applied) Example 2: Same thing as example 1. (Both the first and second bullet points are applied) Example 3: I think with last FAQ we can extrapolate that MODs are only applied when performing a FtF (similarly to how Surprise Attack doesn't -3 you unless you're FtF'ing), and since we're performing a Normal PH Roll, there will be no penalties. (If the user is not making a Face to Face Roll (for example if they have not been Attacked, or have been affected by a Direct Template Weapon), they will instead make a Normal PH Roll.)
Appreciate the contribution, but keeping in mind that DTWs in this edition are Dodged using Normal rolls I don't think we can extrapolate that far from the FAQ (hence adding it to the list) "Dodging a Direct Template Weapon requires a Normal PH Roll (or PH-3 as mentioned previously)."
Fair! Then with that in mind, I think it would be a PH-3 "versus the trooper behind" as it matches all the requirements to get the penalty and PH-0 "versus the trooper in front". Regardless of the other trooper not imposing a penalty, and since you need to win all the rolls to be able to move (like the example with the Mine, the Dodge would essentially act the same as if it was globally a PH-3.
