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Dodge and second MOV value

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Nov 24, 2020.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    This came up in another thread, but wasn't resolved. I'm posting it as a stand-alone question. Ok, two questions.

    Our hero for these questions is an Asawira, who has MOV 6-2 and Dodge(+2").

    Question 1

    In the active turn, the Asawira declares Move and moves 6". For his second short skill he declares Dodge. In the Resolution, he passes his roll. How far can he dodge?

    A) The Dodge rule says he can move 2", and he has Dodge(+2"), so he can go 4".

    B) Dodge(+2") allows him to move up to 4", but must still follow the General Movement Rules. The GMRs say that "MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move." The Unit Profile rules say that MOV is "The number of inches this Trooper can move with an Order. The MOV Attribute usually has two values: the first time the Trooper moves in an Order, and the second." In this case the Dodge movement is the second time the Asawira is moving in the Order, so he cannot move more than 2" despite his Dodge bonus movement.

    Question 2

    This time, the Asawira declares Dodge first. Then he declares Move as his second short skill. How far can he Move?

    A) Move is his second movement skill of the order, so he can only move 2".

    B) Since he does not move due to Dodge until Resolution, his Move movement is "the first time the Trooper moves in an Order" even though the skill was declared second. He can move 6".
     
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  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    1.
    A) The Dodge rule says he can move 2", and he has Dodge(+2"), so he can go 4".

    2.
    C) He can move 6". You use the second MOV value if 'the user declares Move again in the same Order'.

    My emphasis.
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Awesome, thanks!
     
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Oops, got a third question. Our main weapon is surprise and fear!

    This time there's no Move to complicate things. The Asawira just declares Dodge. When he succeeds at his roll, he decides to go prone for his Dodge movement. How far can he move?

    A) 2". Prone halves his 2" Dodge movement and his +2" bonus, so he can move 1"+1".

    B) 3". Prone halves his MOV from 6 to 3, but per @ijw 's answer above, Dodge allows 2" of movement which is unrelated to MOV value. However, prone does halve the Asawira's +2" movement bonus. So he moves 2"+1".

    C) Something else?
     
  5. Kumatake81

    Kumatake81 Well-Known Member

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    I think he can move 2" because
    1"(from Dodge, halved because prone)
    +1"(from dogde(+2"), halved because prone)
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    How do you reach that conclusion?

    Prone halves MOV values and movement bonuses. The base 2" movement from Dodge appears to be neither a MOV value nor a movement bonus, which is why I'm not clear on whether it would be halved and if so, why.
     
  7. loco-la-cabra

    loco-la-cabra New Member

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    "While in this state, Troopers have both their MOV values and movement bonuses halved when performing any Skill with the Movement Label (Move, Dodge…), or when moving as the result of a failed Guts Roll."
    Extracted from the wiki.
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Because Dodge is specifically called out in the Prone rules?
     
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  10. loco-la-cabra

    loco-la-cabra New Member

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    @QueensGambit
    You focused on the wrong part of the rule. :wink:

    "While in this state, Troopers have both their MOV values and movement bonuses halved when performing any Skill with the Movement Label (Move, Dodge…), or when moving as the result of a failed Guts Roll."
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Thank you! It wasn't clear to me whether that applied to both the base Dodge movement or just the Dodge movement bonus, but I take it from your answer that it applies to both.
     
  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    This variation arose locally: does Difficult Terrain reduce a trooper's Dodge distance by 1"?

    A) Yes. Since Prone halves MOV values and this applies to Dodge movement, it follows that Difficult Terrain, which reduces MOV values by 1", also applies to Dodge movement.

    B) No. Per @ijw 's ruling above, the reason that Prone halving applies to Dodge movement is that the Prone rule specifically calls out Dodge. The Difficult Terrain rule doesn't specifically call out Dodge.
     
  13. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    (Side note: The first bullet point of the difficult terrain effects is going to apply independently of the fact that the distance isn’t reduced by 1, it looks like....)

    It’s “No” because Difficult terrain doesn’t specify “MOV values”, it specifies both values of the attribute:
    apply a MOD of -1 inch to both values of their MOV Attribute.


     
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  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    That makes sense to me. Prone halves the MOV value "when performing any skill with the Movement label;" whereas Difficult Terrain only reduces the values of the MOV Attribute, so should only apply to skills that use the MOV Attribute.
     
  15. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that sounds about right. Prone halves the MOV value (and MOV modifiers) for skills with the Movement label, and aso the other movement effects that Prone specifies. But the second effects bullet point of Difficult terrain is an attribute modifier that applies to the trooper’s two movement values. So if you Dodge while in Difficult terrain, it doesn’t do anything to the 2” distance.

    But, any movement at all is going to be subject to the first bullet point of Difficult terrain. If you move into contact with the terrain during the Dodge move, you stop. If you contacted the difficult terrain earlier during the order, there’s no movement at all from Dodge.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was normal maths order of operations.

    Prone divides by 2 and then MOV modifiers add / subtract.

    Unless I missed something?
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    The order doesn't matter in this case since Prone halves both the MOV value and the MOV modifier, which per ijw above means it halves both the base 2" Dodge distance and the +2" Dodge modifier. Since 2/2 + 2/2 = (2+2)/2, order of operations isn't an issue.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So I'm now thoroughly confused, although it's morning so it's probable I'm missing something.

    Do you half the MODs to the Move value or not?

    Or do you half it and then apply MODs?

    Or do you half the MODs on the Move value or Dodge but half the Move value of Movement Skills and then apply MODs?
     
  19. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    So, what ijw ruled above is that when the Asawira is prone, you halve the base 2" movement from Dodge, and also halve the Asawira's +2" movement bonus. So a standing Asawira can dodge 4", a prone Asawira can dodge 2".

    I don't know whether the 2" base Dodge movement is properly called a "MOV value" or not, but ijw's ruling applies either way.

    You may be confused because your question goes to an earlier part of the thread. The more recent part of the thread was not about Prone at all, but about how Dodge interacts with Difficult Terrain.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but I'm interested in how Dodge + Prone + Difficult Terrain interacts.

    IJW has previously said that a 6-2 Move model will Move 2-0 in Difficult Terrain while Prone (the quote I linked above).

    So I don't see why a 6 + 2" Dodge trooper wouldn't Move 2" and Dodge 0" while Prone in Difficult Terrain.

    So:
    What I'm suggesting is that your Prone Asawira should Dodge 1" 2" in Difficult Terrain, not 1.5".

    What I don't understand is why it would Dodge 2" not 3" while Prone outside of Difficult Terrain? But that's probably pre-coffee brain.

    Because surely we do division then addition if we do division before subtraction.

    Edit: Derp: early morning brain.

    It's 2/2 + 2 - 1. So a Prone Asawira in Difficult Terrain will Dodge 2".

    And outside of Difficult Terrain it's 2/2 + 2. So 3".

    Right?
     
    #20 inane.imp, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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