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Do you like the blatant "inspiration"?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Keyrott, Feb 20, 2018.

  1. alchahest

    alchahest Active Member

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    I think it's much closer to reality to assume that the aesthetics of a given thing are interesting to the artists or sculptors, and reflective of the way pop culture can shape fashion and aesthetic, they add them in as fun nods to things. Do they always suit everyone's tastes? nah. Nothing does. But that doesn't make it lazy or greedy. I'm not naive, I know that every single model in the game is intended to be sold, but, if it were purely laziness/greed, and the idea is that these inspired-by characters are the laziest / cheapest (?) then every model would be one.
     
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  2. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    I'm a fan of subtle or clever references in games. Or, barring that, ones that are funny and over the top (in games where that works with the setting, like back in Rogue Trader where the random mission generator had the Doctor showing up).

    To give a 40k version, I always liked the more subdued references (because 40k is also full of blatant and silly references that detract from the background *cough*Horus Heresy is Paradise Lost*cough*). The assassin M'Shen taking down Konrad Curze is a particular favourite (mashing up Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness with some clever name flips and the good old fantasy apostrophe). Or Ghazkhull Mag Uruk Thraka being a snide reference to Margaret Thatcher.

    But when you get blatant with it, then it comes across less as a fun in-joke or reference and just feels lazy. Infinity sadly does a lot of lazy references. Van Zant isn't even trying to hide it. The latest Grunt Spec-ops is actually painful to read because of how ham-fistedly the whole Rosie the Riveter thing was trying to get integrated (would have been better to just have a potential Rosie be an actual recreation instead). Now, I actually like that Infinity's setting allows for pop-culture recreations and I think that's pretty clever (especially with them often making them amalgams of historical personas alongside their pop-culture representations). Though in some cases, the references are kind of dated for a game taking place hundreds of years in the future (why would Achilles look like a long-dead actor, especially given the penchant across history for remakes). And while I like some of the more coded pop-culture references (the Lost regulars are inspired), some are too on-the-nose to be enjoyable (looking at you Suicide Squad Morlocks).

    In general, I think CB need to cut back on the pop-culture references outside of recreations (especially the painfully blatant ones) and let recreations be their outlet of these kinds of things. Because a USAriadna Rosie recreation would have been a bad-ass figure, but just sort of shoving a ham-fisted riveter background in to a random character is just... not great.

    At the very least, if they do want to leave silly references in, they should try to be a bit more subtle, because unsubtle references often feel like they don't trust the audience to get it, so they don't even attempt to hide it which causes a bunch of dissonance in the background since we can basically see a bunch of messy welds where it got jammed in.
     
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  3. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    I like inspiration but the blatancy bothers me a bit. The biker for example, warscythe + female rider in tight leathers, I get the reference and I love the model. With the earred-helmet? It's bordering on unlicensed knock off?
     
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  4. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    ...It worked for Sonic? Really?

    And the thing about politics in fiction is, well, a couple of things. People will see it where it's not there. And yet, some of the most subtle ones can be overlooked.


    Another possible one to chalk up in the negative pile for references: Nothing of those pictures looks all that unique to me. To someone who isn't a big anime fan like myself and may just have osmosis exposure to the work at best, I have to say it looks visually similar to other more prominent animes at first glance, like it has itself been derivative in some aspects already. Like, the "TAG"s you show, they make me think of Evangelion or Gundam first, not Code Geass, because those two franchises have had a massive influence already on many similar shows and even wider pop culture outside anime. The "impersonation" troopers also kind of look like generic vampires. In fact the cloak/colourscheme reminds me of what seems to have been a vampire character from Digimon. Which has basically always been "knock-off pokemon" at worst and the punchline to "Pokemon names don't end in -mon!" jokes when someone tries to be all Cowboy Bebop at His Computer.

    ... I guess it would only be fair as a secondary reference though, give the Tohaa have goddamn Mudkips.
     
  5. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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    Sega hired some people that made fan levels for the classic Sonic games to make a new 2d Sonic that came out last year to rave reviews.
     
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  6. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Ah, right, I'd forgotten they had a good one, having another bad one show up so soon after it can't have helped....
     
  7. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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  8. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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  9. Monkeysloth

    Monkeysloth Well-Known Member

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  10. stargorger

    stargorger Well-Known Member

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    I've already signed away my Celty to somebody else lol. I'll stick with the non-copycat models. Still torn on what to do with Ryuken 9...Batou might have to go.

    Generally I believe fans know stuff better than the creators, because as a creator myself I can say it is A: hard to come up with new unique stuff, especially frequently, and B: easy to get lost in the details and so laser-sighted as to be blind to the big picture. I also think the current fad of hating on fans and associating them only with the most extreme folks is poisonous to creative media in general. But, *shrug*, thats getting off topic.

    My general rule with Infinity is I refuse, on principle, to use anything that's a direct rip-off. Subtlety is fine. And the fact that I can paint it to look however helps. But Ill never own much less use the Suicide Squad, Van Zant, Celty, etc etc. But then I'm just one person and thousands of people will just like the cool models so, drop in the bucket? :)
     
  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I see what you did there.
     
  12. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That I've seen it's in the high 90%'s of fans ruining anything they have input on. It always kills the spirit and results in a slurry. By a process of averages you get the same naive concepts that every newbie creative goes through before they gain experience. I want to see the creators soul, even if it's in a goofy cartoon. I don't want something that could be made by anyone at any time, that never needs to exist.
     
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  13. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Well, I was more just thinking because the central premise of Code Geass is somewhat similar to the Uprising narrative thats unfolding, rather than it being a particularly influential Anime like Gundam, Akira, or Evangelion. It is pretty derrirative, i'm not going to lie. The dynamic of the main characters really wants to be Death Note's Kira and L, but its entirely too pompous and ridiculous to achieve to that level.

    The impersonation troopers were a bit of a stretch, in the show it's all of the Japanese rebels/civillians wearing the main characters mask to keep him safe as he escapes into a crowd. So the way I guess you'd work that in game would be Impersonation units that are non-combatents and putting them into a null state would be worth negative victory points for the opponent. Literally civillians joining the fight just by getting in the way and making life hard for the enemy.

    What is nice about CG is that the TAGs are pretty much exactly the same scale as TAGs in Infinity, a couple of times taller than a car so if they felt compelled to reference it it wouldn't even be that hard.
     
  14. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

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    After seeing army list for the new Japanese I'm baffled with CB approach. They scraped original unit and character (Asuka and Raiden) and replaced them with Section 9 and Celty knock-offs. Both had good (although not digital) designs and well liked miniatures. I think Raiden was one of the better looking units in JSA range. What is the point of getting rid of own IP and originality to replace with copies of other peoples work?
     
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  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure we call that "Holoprojector L1" rather than Impersonation.

    Losing confidence in your own work is never a good sign.
     
  16. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Maybe. I think impersonation would work better for a noncombatent 'decoy' unit.
    Holoprojector would lead to unfun gameplay I think. I'm going to shoot that guy, oh he's actually a civillian and now i've pasted him. Oops. Though you'd need to include a genuinely dangerous Impersonator somewhere for the shell game to work, which I don't think JSA has?

    Amusingly you'd probably have to make it so aliens don't get negative points for killing the civillians. Why would they care? They have no PR to manage, after all.
     
  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Ah, you mean as opposed to discovering them and leaving them be if anything?
    If so, something like Holo2 / Ambush Camo has similar interaction in them. You have extra markers, but they are nothing but noise.

    Yeah, we only have Fiday and Speculo as impersonators in Infinity. Unless you count KHD / HD+ users, who need to enter that state first. And I suppose if you can start the game in that state as hacker, you still has to declare specific usage of CT...

    Well, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to base rules purely on fluff.
    For one, I'm still curious if restricting Fidays from using IMP-1 against CA and Tohaa has something behind it other than said fluff reasons.
    I'm mildly annoyed by that rule too since I'm HB player and I only have CA and Tohaa players to play locally so far...
     
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  18. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. But obviouslly requiring biovisors vs Multispectral to combat.

    Sure, my idea wouldn't work unless the faction also got an impersonator.

    Top down design has it's place, to write it off out of hand as a 'bad design tool' is unwise. However, as with any aboslute, you wouldn't want an entire game designed top down else it'd be a convoluted mess.
     
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  19. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Well, I wouldn't call "original" a redhead, agressive gal called Asuka that rides a red-colored machine :p
     
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  20. DruidNei

    DruidNei Well-Known Member

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    Eva reference comes to my mind, but with different clothes and hairstyle it's not that obvious. Way better then her current incarnation.
     
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