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Dissapointing units

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Natsymir, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    If you are within 8in with a shotgun it may be a worthwhile play in active turn.
    It might be situational but its an option that wasn't there in N3 so that's a good thing.
    The MSV1 changes are there to tone down smoke toting warbands imo. Given they usually carry short range weapons AROing them at range on -6 is going to be worth a punt.
     
  2. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    You mean before HSN3? Because my regular opponents often complained how good the were for the points.

    A camoed Hacker might prove very useful in N4. Combined with a Infiltrating KHD Nahab to make the life of opposing KHD harder, it seems like a very solid midfield deterrent. Yes its expensive, but they also can fulfill other roles so its something I will try once I am done trying all the new toys of the Hassassins:-D

    Also, that Minelayer profile wasnt there from the beginning, was it?
     
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  3. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    I think so. But yeah WIP 15 hacker with marker state is always good.
     
  4. BrianJ

    BrianJ Active Member

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    I used tuaregs all the time in N3. My biggest question for them in N4 is the appearance of the Nadhir. A lot of my lists right now are featuring the trio of hawwa hacker, farzan minelayer, and nadhir which doesn't leave much reason to take the tuareg. I could see them returning as the meta and missions continue to evolve.

    As far as disappointments I'm having a real hard time justifying the khawarijs in vanilla which is heartbreaking. They only got trivially better in CC and a little better in survivability for no points reduction while the SWC profiles all got worse and/or more expensive. Right now Yara the hot new myuib HRL and many other spitfire profiles seem to put these awesome and iconic models into a place of obsolescence. Someone please convince me otherwise I don't want to be down on them.

    Are RTF players even still looking at them?
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I also find them expensive, but they went over the ‘magic’ CC20 level so are now adding 2 to the number rolled on the die, so it’s less trivial than it initially looks. Also they gained NBW so against someone with Martial Arts they’re that bit better again.

    For surviviability, bear in mind that N4 Bioimmunity means that they are effective ARM3 but better, as they can also take AP hits or ARM=0 hits on their BTS and ignore the effect. Not massive, but again it’s bigger than it initially looks. So they’re effective ARM6 in Cover now, which is into the range where N4 Crits work out better for them.

    They also gained the equivalent of Fatality L1 at the unit level, and that now works with Grenades and Direct Template Weapons like Shotguns in Blast Mode.

    Whether all that is enough, I don’t know, but they’re quite a bit tougher than before.
     
  6. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I am having a hard time with them. As an RTF player who really liked the super-soldiers, I still only ever used the HRL, MSV2, and the Spitfire profile. All of these seem like a hard sell now. With SJ getting nerfed hard, Yara being a cheaper and more efficient MSV2 in the new ARM meta, and the Spitfire being nothing but a shadow of its’ former glory, I really don’t know what to think of them. The new Jann’s and the same old Muhktars invalidate them pretty hard. For better shooting/survivability you got Janns, for better skirmishing/maneuverability you got Muhktars.
     
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  7. BrianJ

    BrianJ Active Member

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    That's a neat point. Like you said, not super common situation (and one you don't want to be in) but a little more durable then I had realized.

    That's was my perspective too. Also have the SWC zhayedan now w/ marksmanship and the new regeneration. At least those lovely models should see some more use!
     
  8. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

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    Some of the Khawarij issue could have been solved by making them Wildcards rather than counts-as-Ghulams. A Khawarij in a Zhayedan or Mukhtar haris would be something. RTF as a whole is a sectorial with some strict linking, with basically on Ghulams and Janissaires having good options. I wonder how they would be perceived if Mukhtars didn't exist, as they show what is really possible.
     
    #48 vorthain, Oct 3, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
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  9. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    5 man link in good range band with a bs12 means you're hitting on 12's if they're in the open, or 9s if they're in cover. so you get 5 shots on 9s and they ought to be 1 shot on 6s or 3s depedning on their rangeband. heck even if they're in a link and ignore the -6, if you have them in bad range you can get them on 9s with 1 dice vs your 9s with 5 dice.

    its definitely a great option to have
     
  10. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

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    Why isn't it common? If Bioimmunity allows you to always use the better score, then its the typical situation of ... being shot. And given you can get cover from being higher than target without being prone (easier for Super Jumper), making ARM6 not so hard to get. Am I reading that right?
     
  11. BrianJ

    BrianJ Active Member

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    I'm referring to the special interaction ijw pointed out with ignoring the ARM=0 rule of k1 ammo being circumvented by taking it on your BTS through the bioimmunity ability.

    You are right and I agree that the general using of the bioimmunity rule to have functional arm3 (6) should be almost always in play. Maybe I'm undervaluing the utility of a 4-4 jumper with decent armor. Is there a profile beyond the Mk12/MSV2/NCO you'd imagine including?
     
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  12. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    AP would still effect BTS as it does with breaker right? Arm=0 I understand.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    According to HellLois, AP is tied to the Saving Roll Attribute listed on the weapon's profile.
     
  14. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    That seems very odd, but if that's how it's intended.
     
  15. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

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    I might lean to the FO Mk12. Its cheaper, a specialist, and can lone wolf around with neither Ghulams slowing him down nor an overpriced Khawarij core/haris. Maybe Khawarij+Leila+Yara as a Khawarij haris, but I'm not sure it'd be better than Mukhtars. I think jumping can be pretty niche but a specialist with a damage 16 gun is good in its own right.
     
    #55 vorthain, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Someone with Sixth Sense gets to ignore the -6 if the other guy shoots back.
    For a MSV1 that means the other guy either Dodges or shoots back and cancels your penalty.
    Core Linked MSV1s are pretty rad now.
    K1/AP interacting like that with Bioimmunity is good to know and makes the Skill a lot better, but at the same time there really should be an example for that interaction in the rules to showcase it.
    Especially since AP was changed to work on ARM or BTS in N4. It makes sense that Bioimmunity circumvents the problem because the AP/K1 effect is tied to the Save Roll type, but nevertheless that appears a little too well hidden to be obvious.
     
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  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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  18. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    oof that would be brutal... you get -6, they shoot at flat... brutal :D
     
  19. 28mmLlama

    28mmLlama New Member

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    That is really odd. The example in the book under bioimmunity talks about DA + shock. If that ammo hit a troop profile with bioimmunity it could choose to make "both" saing rolls on BTS, therefore still applying the effects of the ammunition. The description for AP (like DA) says it can affect both ARM and BTS. That means either AP is written wrong or Bioimmunity is written wrong if AP doesn't affect bioimmunity then.
     
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  20. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    wait, what? I can't see that in either the app nor on the Army 7 website.
     
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