The real issue is that there is not enough room between ZY, WM, SJs and Cranes. You don't need to be too crazy to fix this. Drop ZY to CC14 and BS12. This will shave ~3pts from them and will position them as the absolute bare-bones HI, also differentiating them from WM in Vanilla (and potentially in IA). Drop SJ to CC15. This will shave ~2-3pts from them. Use the saved points to give them SSL1.* This leverages their LFT and Duo ability to get efficient specialist teams that can keep themselves alive in the midfield. I'd seriously consider also adding their LFT to the Spitfire and Multi-rifle profiles. They're then significantly cheaper than Cranes in Vanilla and very effective as a midfield Duo/Haris eventually in IA. I'd also seriously consider swapping their Shock CCW + Pistol out for a Heavy Pistol: emphasising their ability to dominate the 8" around them. I think this more accurately captures ZY as a 'regular soldier' and SJ as 'the same but with better equipment'. * Better situational awareness through better technology. ------ On the bigger topic though: I honestly think the way to improve Orcs, MB, SJ et al on the whole is to allow more combinations in the link so that your pain-train can be an effective centerpiece: you've already traded away orders and coverage so why should you also lose capability? For instance, Tinbot on a BSG profile al la Grrls, or even on a specialist profile, adding a Spec Fire option on a profile that you otherwise want (the WM Multi+LGL simultaneously gives the link Shock/AP/Spec Fire). This will allow them to compete with links like the WM and Grrls where they're cheap enough (or have access to enough cheap orders) that you can take the pain-train AND the other options you need.
I'm not convinced CC18->CC16 is even a full point. A Ninja (CC23, MA3, AP CCW) is an estimated 8 points over a Crocman (CC14)
For a moment I thought you meant SJ = Su-Jian and I was like "Bruh... Su-Jian already cost at least 2-3 points too little!" On the actual topic though, I wouldn't change them much to be honest. Remember that a sectorial can mean a lot for a trooper profile. Take for example the Wildcats, you would never bring a Wildcat Spitfire on his own in Vanilla Nomads but the profile is much better as soon as you are able to form a link. Same with the Crane Rank Spitfire, he's competing with too many other options in Vanilla Yu Jing and there're other better options for a solo piece but as soon as you give him a link to boost him, he becomes a monster! I would keep the current profiles as they are (maybe add an Engineer/Doctor) and link them the same way as Hospitaliers/Magister Knights and Brawlers/Druze can link with each other. Were the Sháng Jí do the heavy lifting and the Zúyõng act as addon link fillers.
On the other hand, CC13 to 14 is a full point. Which is terrible. I would play CC17 Zanshi tho. Would be about as useless but feel like it was worth that extra point. And make for some excellent trolling moments.
I would think Moderators are 10.4 points while Zhanshi are 10.6 points. CC17 or 18 Zhanshi would probably still be 11 points, so yeah...
A Ninja's CC23 and MA3 (and Kinematika) costs more than 8 points. You can find this out by comparing to Dasyu. Dasyu receive BS+1, PH+1, WIP+1, NWI, Nanopulser and Antipersonnel Mines for the same price. Which is worth the price more may be up to you.
I do not agree. Dasyu is harder to compare due to NWI being harder to estimate. Instead look at Tuareg. Remove mines, lower WIP two steps and you've got identical stats and gear aside from the CC relevant gear (and Kinematica). Under the assumption that WIP 15 isn't exceptionally costly we're looking at 8 or 9 points for a Ninja's massive CC abilities (depending on if you count Kinematica as being CC relevant or not). That's still way too much for how seldom CC is used and the kind of rangeband it has, but it's not a massive amount compared to what some estimate it to be.
Yeah, that's an ongoing problem. At the beginning of N3, it was so much better than the dark days of 2nd Edition, but it just wasn't enough to move CC from being an incredibly niche thing in the game. At this stage if feels more expensive and less useful than an investment in hacking, and that's not a great place to be. The real problem is that CB can't seem to properly acknowledge this in the rules. They (sometimes) adhere strictly to their points rubric and in doing so, don't realize that paying points for CC investment below a certain level is basically a penalty to the unit rather than a bonus. It is sad how many units could be immediately improved by simply knocking 4-5 points off CC and remove a CCW for no actual negative impact on the unit's usage profile or role. In some ways, I think CC itself as a skill (and all the special skills that alter it) need to be treated in a fundamentally different way that they currently are (i.e. like any other skill in the game). Because unlike WIP, PHY, and BS I can basically guarantee that 99% of units (friend or foe) on the field will never roll their CC value (and if they do, then I've failed in some fundamental way by letting that 1% get where it shouldn't be. Hell, even ARM and BTS (two stats that can get outright ignored by good rolling) will still get plenty of rolls in a game. But CC is unlikely to get even one unless someone brought one of the handful of units that can do well in CC. I mean, even stuff that should be good in CC (like most Warbands) will only ever go there out of desperation (preferring the carnage of its chain rifle to killing a singular unit). This is a strong indicator that the CC skill and the special skills that go with it are quite a bit different than other parts of the game, and the costing rubric should either account for it or the game needs to overhaul its close combat system (especially if they keep making models waving swords, machetes, and various other melee weapons around as if they were useful). N3 finally turned it from a completely useless turd of an ability in to an extremely niche ability that you still aren't likely use but it still feels like an ability tax or downside to a unit instead of a reason to take it.
Veteran 1 would be fluffy but it's a wierd skill. Works best on cheerleaders, as you don't want them to have an order often, whereas your 40 odd point dudes want their irregular order and some regulars too thankyouverymuch. Deflector 1 and no tinbot profile seems fluffy too. Sure you could make it an exploit, but if any HI should be impossible to hack why not those from the HI sectoral of the HI faction? Plus taking an EVO for just that purpose seems a little wasteful. What about keeping the points as is and giving the courage and multiterrain? Maybe climbing plus?
Mimetism is something that I'd like to avoid, but that's strictly because it's such an easy band-aid to use. I really like that fix. The Zu Yong are a couple points too expensive to really use as a core link team very often. And this needs a separate +1 because I can only like one post once.
I think we can conclude that the most anticipated alteration is to allow Shang-Ji to act as Staff Sergeants for Zuyong and other troops. As a side note, IA seems to be missing both normal Hacking Devices and Killer Hacking Devices. Having two Shang-Ji be linkable with Zuyong or <insert dream MI unit> would make them function as effective AHD troops, but the faction still would be dependent on the Pangolin for Fairy Dust and on the Tinbot trooper staying alive in order to navigate repeater nets. Unlike Domarumaki, Zuyong+Shang-Ji can't stealth past them. As a side note, Shang-Ji at 4 pts more expensive because they all carry Auto-Medikit? At the very least I'd like to see Auto-Medikit on a Missile Launcher HI. For reasons.
It doesn't help that being a HI, these guys would still be screwed by EMP even if they were Veterans.
Helps against Oblivion, bringing the number of effective Hacking Programs usable against them down by one important program, and it helps if the LT gets fragged. Veteran L1 is also a very, very, cheap skill.
Eh, it does help, I was just saying it's one less reason for it to be useful on top of another one mentioned in the post I quoted. It also helps against Jammers which seems to be the best advertisement for some people :P Compared to the price of HI, it probably is.
No, it's cheap compared to everything. It's one of the game's cheapest skills. We're talking 2 points or less.
I really like the idea of MSV1, it's one of my favourite skills in the game. Veteran and automedikit are also great ideas. You could also give them all specialist operative, which would be espescially nice if they become the IA equivalent of Hafza/Domaru, being able to join most links.
I don't see what's so bad about them to be honest, their specialist options are really interesting. Fireteam Duo would be much better in IA as it wouldn't need to be set up. I think we'll also see them leading Zuyong links, as mixed fireteams seems to be the new trend. Providing a template weapon and a hacking device to a Zuyong link sounds good to me.
It's the price. You get very little in return for the increased cost when compared to Wu Ming or Zuyong. Flamethrower is arguably the most important difference, yet that one is only a 1-point equipment, so a lot of the other stuff that you rarely use just makes the unit pricey.
