MSV1 make him a bit elite in comparation with the terracota. I feel MSV1, specialist for all porfiles (via SO) and some kind of upgraded movement will make the Shang-Ji worth to pick inside the sectorial ( i assume we won't have any tipical camo infiltrator apart of AVA 1 ninja).
There's a segment of the fluff which describes their application which makes them sound like Navy Seals, Speznaz, the various nordic Jägare, etc. Latching on to this, Mechanized Deployment - to symbolize a wide variety of deployment methods Multi-terrain - to emphasize the mobility and wide range of operations More specialists - simple enough. Probably a good place for a combat engineer with a heavy flamethrower. More exotic weapons. Flamethrower is fine, but if the model is expensive already maybe a point or two extra to make the gun exotic is worth it.
They're meant to be premier line HI, in the base profile probably with phy 14 or hyperdynamics with fireteam duo, obviously some specialist profiles or a CoC I would probably put the changes in loadout As it's bleeding edge line power armour I'd probably look at breaker or AP combi rifles, something that says "alpha predators" when compared with other power armour troops, maybe a contender to basically give them, along with an AP combi, a poor mans multi rifle but on a mass scale. Maybe an E/M weapon for similar reasons. PS while we're having a moan about sub par HI, Suryats should have a higher phys, and while we're at it can Shas get Daofei?
At the release of N3 there was a standard Hacking Device profile that saw quite a bit of play in my lists. It was a very nice toolbox kit that let the Shang Ji do a lot of different things depending on your tactical need. The Assault Hacking Device that replaced it is nice, but doesn't have nearly the same versatility, and KHDs make adding hacking devices to HI a bit of a mixed blessing these days. Either way, a return to the standard Hacking Device would be a big boon for the Shang Ji. The problem now is that they are bracketed by a lot of other HI that already fill a large number of the niches: 1. No-frills guns - Zuyong 2. Exotic guns - Wu Ming 3. Mobility - Su Jian 4. Mid-field skirmishing - Daofei 5. CC/Utility Equipment - Crane 6. Tough Specialist - lots of things, but especially Karakuri (for now) Well now, that last one is interesting, isn't it? I think that may be their future home, and one I would be welcome to see them return to. Doctor, Engineer, standard Hacking Device would give them a lot of utility while not stepping on the toes of any other profiles. And besides, what Invincible Army would be complete without HI doctors/engineers? Something like this, with no change to their basic stats: SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 37) SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 39) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 46) SHÀNG JÍ Doctor (Medikit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ Engineer (D-Charges) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40) SHÀNG JÍ Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 37) I'd use the heck out of those. Let's hope they head in that direction.
Without doing something drastic, such as make them unit leads for cheaper Zuyong or Haris compatible with Yan Huo (basically allow them to get dragged along and be DTWs for more efficient units), I don't see the sad state of the Shang-Ji changing. They are simply a poorly optimised unit. I'm not sure I'd want a Hacking Device so much as a Killer Hacking Device, by the way, should they be linkable with other units.
In my mind, the background for them really does need to change to something we actually need rather than it just being line trooper plus. Infinity is a game where role matters, it is a game where something that does the same job as another unit but with worse results means that the unit wont really see play. That is, right now, the Shang Ji's issue. In vanilla a mid-range HI with no distinguishing features isn't seeing play compared to a mid/high-cost assault HI with a strong toolset in vanilla. Meanwhile, in a hypothetical IA, if it is also just another linkable troop then it will largely fail to see use next to the Zuyong which will come in at a cheaper price point and do 90% of its job. If they manage to flip that and give it enough super-cheap filler options in the link, then that only negatively impacts Zuyong in the long run (because they rarely see widespread use in vanilla since their obvious use is as a linkable HI in IA). We've just lost a whole bunch of HI profiles, many of them with fairly unique roles and loadouts, so retconning the Shang Ji in to something to fill those holes seems like a better step than recreating the problem we had back in 2nd Edition with too many basic HI troopers in the list (although in those days the Shang Ji was the shining example while the normal Invincible and Wu Ming were seen as inefficient and over-costed). Using the Shang Ji to make something cool and unique seems like the best use of the concept, and if that requires re-writing its background then I'm all for it in this case. Back in the days of 40+ point basic HI with poor optimization, an improve line HI that had an eye toward optimization was a great concept in both rules terms and in the background. But in the intervening years since it dropped prior to the first Human Sphere book, the situation for HI has been greatly improved and such a thing is sort of a fossil. Pricier, elite HI links just aren't super workable outside of certain configurations (often relying on cheap filler like the Zhanying+Hsien Haris) and without a massive boost in what it can do, it wont be as enticing as some of the better ones we've seen (Crane+CG, Zhanying+Hsien). This is why I like the idea of a background re-write to allow it to be simply a special operations unit for the Invincible Army. Well done and interesting elite HI have a high degree of use in their own sectorials and vanilla, and with vanilla hurting for profiles I'd like to see more new profiles that fill the gaps left. Maybe a 6-2 MOV HI with Super Jump, Mimetism and BS14 (definitely bring CC down to 16 and give it a knife instead of a CCW though). GIve it Specialist Operative and maybe some funky equipment like Eclipse Grenades (or even just smoke) and you have a unit that will perform a unique enough role in both vanilla and IA that it will definitely see play in a great many lists.
To be fair, if they have 14 BS, 14 PH, 14 Wip, 4 Arm and 6 BTS along with Haris and Fireteam Core options there will be arguments for putting them on the table. But they are always going to suffer from "mid-range CC investment". I think the key is to make them a key part of Invincible Army flexibility (two of them in a Haris with Yuan Huo, one of them in a Haris with two Terracotta, Duo and Haris options on their own and an interesting character). But the "tough specialist" route could also work. Hell if you made THEM the HI Doctor and Engineer that alone would see them hit the table, give them a regular Hacking Device too and you would be putting the option out there to field a viable all-HI force. And we ALL know that's something people will want to do.
I think we need to cover some history: In N2: all HI were 4-2 move. All but the Shang Ji (and the various ARM3 types, when they came out in Human Sphere). BTS was like mimetism or ODD, it was a direct penalty to the hacker's WIP. It wasn't ARM versus hacking programs like it is now. BTS -6 made a model nearly unhackable. Invincibles were statistically identical to Wu Ming, except that the Wu Ming didn't have a Cube. If we wanted to make those two factors still part of what makes the Shang Ji superior to a Wu Ming suit, I'd suggest 6-2 MOV and Deflector L2, natively (not on a Tinbot!) Another option would be some new gear that gives a penalty to the hacker's WIP the way Mimetism does to BS. Damn straight it is! I might be persuadable to avoid the basic hacking device (since an EVObot does that, and pretty much any hacking device requires a mandatory no-substitutions side order of Killer Hacking Device), but the Invincible Army needs to have HI doc and Engineer profiles.
Would it be preferable to put the Shang-ji on the table over getting a Doctor/Engineer that's actually universally good for all sectorial list variations. Shang-Ji is expensive as it is and I find that the cheaper Sophotect is difficult to slot into the lists. Note: if the Doctor and Engineer profiles respectively had a weapon that's more useful than Combi, it could be solved. I'm thinking Mk12 (or an exotice Marksman's Rifle) for the Doctor and LRL and Light Shotgun for Engineer. Beyond that, what about the other Shang-Ji? If literally the only profiles people take are the two Doc/Engi, why waste money designing the other weapon options? @Section9 slap a no frills Firewall on them? Sure, makes them incompatible with Fairy Dust. Also, speaking of mandatory KHD, what's your take on White Hacking Device (Upgrade: Skullbuster)?
People are talking about taking away CC, but MA1 would be a pretty good deal for like 1 point. Stealth would help them do better in the midfield where they usually hang out, and if they got E/M CCWs they could even pretend to be Domaru sometimes. It could really go either way, as long as it doesn't hang around in its current state where it costs points without actually being any good. Minor stat bumps aren't the way to go imo. BTS is good, but otherwise an overreliance on stats is what got Shang Ji into this mess in the first place. Instead I think they're a good candidate for toolbox duty within IA. Give them d-charges somewhere, flamers on all profiles, perhaps a doc or engi profile, grenades somewhere (possibly E/M for Domaru replacement), a deployable repeater maybe, even a vulkan shotgun. There's plenty of fun toys that those disgusting Wu Ming criminals haven't stolen yet. 6-2 MOV could be an option for mobility, but that might be a little weird as iirc Cranes are in the same suits (though I could be wrong), and fancy MOV seems to be used rather sparingly. I'm a fan of forward deployment L1 as it emphasizes both the speed of the suit and the competence of the trooper inside. Also I'd make them veteran troops instead of line troops, since Shang Ji suits are explicitly handed out to the Invincibles with the best service records. It'd give them a nice bonus for those times when unit classifications are relevant, and the line troop section of YJ is bloated anyway.
Yeah, I was thinking something like SMG, Mk12/marksman rifle, etc, myself. Not even Boarding shottie, something cheaper. Shang Ji are BTS6 and have deflector L2 available as-is, so not being able to Fairy Dust them wouldn't be too big a deal, I don't think. Better than a DHD or basic WHD. But hacking isn't too big a part of my meta, aside from KHDs everywhere.
Make them NWI Zuyong, swap Double Breaker for LFT on all profiles. Bang, superior. Maybe some extra BS or ARM or PHY if its too close in price to Zuyong.
I mean, point of having Firewall is you don't have to Fairy Dust them :) I'd expect WHD with a Sword upgrade would mean that you either face a serious defensive program or suffer normal rolls from a lethal program - and you get "Sixth Sense" against KHD. Stupidly expensive, though.
Actually, with a standing Firewall, I'm not sure I'd allow Deflector. -3 to WIP plus BTS12 would be even more unhackable than BTS -6 in N2. I'd need to play around with the various hacking devices a lot more before I give a stronger opinion about WHD+Skullbuster.
It would be -9 to WIP BTS 9. Which, to be fair, is even more broken. Deflector is -3 to Hacker WIP per level, not +3 BTS
That's not very extreme*, but it does make it so that you can also gain the benefit of EVO Supportware. * It's something that's a reality right now.
Something like nanoshield, bs14 and some solid weapon profiles for suppressive fire would be good as a take-and-hold piece +/- a flamer rem Or the aforementioned 6-2 mov, and some cqc skills with appropriate breach and clear weapons (vulkan shotguns, smg or something)
